The Millennials simplified.

[_moinmoin]

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals?

This is a serious question. I would love to read your explanation.

Flaming Meaux:

Would also be interested in something more substantive than, "Wink, wink, you know, and I know, but many out there don't know, and their testimonies can't handle knowing, so just go along with the program and pretend for the benefit of others and maybe you'll get a good casserole out of it." I heard something very close to that from a bishop once.

How do you define "intellectual?" And, as you see it, is it possible to be an "intellectual" and also actually believe the truth claims of the Church? Or, are these mutually exclusive?

[_Morley]

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals?

This is a serious question. I would love to read your explanation.

Flaming Meaux:

Would also be interested in something more substantive than, "Wink, wink, you know, and I know, but many out there don't know, and their testimonies can't handle knowing, so just go along with the program and pretend for the benefit of others and maybe you'll get a good casserole out of it." I heard something very close to that from a bishop once.

How do you define "intellectual?" And, as you see it, is it possible to be an "intellectual" and also actually believe the truth claims of the Church? Or, are these mutually exclusive?

Please feel free to go with your own definition (but, for the sake of clarity, if it's different from what is commonly understood, please also let us know what that is).

Of course it's possible for an intellectual to believe the truth claims of the Church. That said, I think it's an uphill battle in the present environment generated within Mormonism itself.

As I wrote, I don't see the Church as very friendly to intellectuals. You imply that you do, moinmoin. I be interested in reading your thoughts, so I'll ask it again:

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals?

[_fetchface]

Now, about your frustration with active members who don't pull their weight. I recently received the words of a high ranking GA along with several others where the sentiments were a little more candid than I've heard in official settings. Specifically to your point, he assured us based on revelation that the work in the spirit world is just as difficult as it is here, and that you will be working there, essentially, nonstop. And so even in the words of one of the very elect, the ship is going nowhere, no matter how hard you row. He didn't specify beyond the resurrection, but until then, for hundreds if not thousands of years, it seems as if you are doomed to a life of thankless labor. I think you have few options here, moin. I personally recommend grabbing a putty knife and scraping yourself off the bottom and be free. But should you chose to go the distance, I recommend that like unto Paul, that you learn to rejoice in your afflictions.

Back when I was EQP with a house full of toddlers and infants, I'd have thoughts riding my motorcycle home from work like, "If someone pulled out in front of me and I didn't have time to slow down and I slammed into their car and died, at least I'd be able to rest." Now you're telling me I would have gone straight from being overworked in life to being overworked in death. Are we sure that someone didn't swap the "Spirit Prison" and "Spirit Paradise" signs? This sounds like a good description of what Hell would look like.

And why would it be hard to convince spirits to join God's one true program? God sure seems to love holding people accountable for making the right choice with incomplete information. This is probably the most absurd aspect of LDS/Christian theology: the idea that one's moral worthiness is determined by one's ability to have the correct belief about unknowable things. What a distraction from actual moral development!

A real God would have missionaries walking amongst the spirits of the dead to help them mend broken relationships, promote kindness and understanding, teach critical thinking skills, etc., but the Mormon God will send his armies out to convince spirits that they need to check off all of the correct ordinance boxes, but he won't appear in front of everyone and say it himself, otherwise people wouldn't need faith. And faith is necessary for you to be good for some reason that can't be intelligently articulated even though a whole stack of Givens books have tried their damnedest. /rant

[_Morley]

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals?

moinmoin-

I'm going to clarify, in case I'm coming off as a little opaque.

We both agreed that introverts can have a difficult time in the LDS Church because of certain conditions in the organization's bureaucracy or behavior. I'm suggesting it's as bad or worse for intellectuals. You disagree. I'm asking for elaboration.

[_Meadowchik]

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals?

moinmoin-

I'm going to clarify, in case I'm coming off as a little opaque.

We both agreed that introverts can have a difficult time in the LDS Church because of certain conditions in the organization's bureaucracy or behavior. I'm suggesting it's as bad or worse for intellectuals. You disagree. I'm asking for elaboration.

I have a thought about that, if I may.

Introverts might face a fundamental conflict with Mormonism because it is constantly demands intimacy from its adherants. Those who exhaust easily after personal contact will then have a very difficult time coping with the religion, be it socially, intellectually, spiritually, etc...

OTOH, with all else being equal, intellectuals who are able to compartmentalize the church's teachings might have less difficulty coping within the church.

This is where we might observe a niche (that happens to run in my family): that of the intellectual introvert, Mormons who tend to detach themselves from much of the social current of the church and replace it with intellectual dives into selected favorite pieces. My dad, for example, loves the Sermon at the Temple in The Book of Mormon.

[_moinmoin]

As I wrote, I don't see the Church as very friendly to intellectuals. You imply that you do, moinmoin. I be interested in reading your thoughts, so I'll ask it again:

In what ways is the LDS Church welcoming to (or even accommodating of) intellectuals? . . .

We both agreed that introverts can have a difficult time in the LDS Church because of certain conditions in the organization's bureaucracy or behavior. I'm suggesting it's as bad or worse for intellectuals. You disagree. I'm asking for elaboration.

Thanks for the clarification! I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't pointless to respond because of a definition that mutually excluded believers as intellectuals ("Brights" vs. "Boetians"). That's kind of the default setting of many here, isn't it? You cleared that up by saying, "Of course it's possible for an intellectual to believe the truth claims of the Church."

The definition is probably going to vary a little. Is an intellectual simply a deep thinker or one who is well-read and well-informed? Or does an intellectual have to favor or prejudice empiricism over faith? Etc.

I actually didn't disagree out of hand with your assessment. I agree generally with your thought that " it's an uphill battle [for intellectuals] in the present environment generated within Mormonism itself." This makes me wonder if the current climate is better or worse than, say, the environment B.H. Roberts or John A. Widtsoe (or Orson Pratt, if we want to go further back) were under. I think, personally, that in some ways things are better now, and in other ways they were better then for intellectuals in the Church.

How's that for a fence-straddling answer? I do think that it's really tough sledding for thinkers whose sympathies come down strongly in favor of skepticism and criticism of the Church and its foundations.

Meadowchik just added a really good thought:

. . .with all else being equal, intellectuals who are able to compartmentalize the church's teachings might have less difficulty coping within the church.

This is where we might observe a niche (that happens to run in my family): that of the intellectual introvert, Mormons who tend to detach themselves from much of the social current of the church and replace it with intellectual dives into selected favorite pieces. My dad, for example, loves the Sermon at the Temple in The Book of Mormon.

There are certainly people who "detach themselves from much of the social current of the church and replace it with intellectual dives into selected favorite pieces." And who thrive thereby.

[_fetchface]

"Intellectual" is a bit of a vague term.

As a very analytical thinker (and someone who is very bothered if their worldview has internal or external inconsistencies), church was a hard place for me because of all of the internal and external inconsistencies.

As an introvert, church was a hard place for me because of, as Meadowchik put it, constant demands for intimacy and random, unexpected, and mandatory demands to perform publicly.

Both personality traits made church hard but in different ways.

[_moksha]

I think a better course is to let the wheat separate from the chaff and to "cull the herd," so to speak.

Once the young Millennial wheat is free of the chaff do you envision them going to another field to grow?

[_Meadowchik]

"Intellectual" is a bit of a vague term.

As a very analytical thinker (and someone who is very bothered if their worldview has internal or external inconsistencies), church was a hard place for me because of all of the internal and external inconsistencies.

As an introvert, church was a hard place for me because of, as Meadowchik put it, constant demands for intimacy and random, unexpected, and mandatory demands to perform publicly.

Both personality traits made church hard but in different ways.

That combination seemd to be a recipe for chronic depression, in my observations.

[_fetchface]

That combination seemd to be a recipe for chronic depression, in my observations.

The hard part for me was believing that God purposely engineered this awful church experience. I never really felt close to God. He seemed like an Alpha Ape that you just had to make happy because he was the strongest, despite the fact that nothing he wanted made any sense. I found the temple experience, supposedly God's greatest gift to mankind, to be underwhelming. I always assumed the problem lay with me.

Yeah, I was probably somewhat depressed and certainly very anxious all my life. I feel much better now. No comparison really. It feels so good to just believe whatever makes most sense to me and to have control of how I interact with others, like someone had been sitting on my chest all my life and finally got off.