The "Witnesses" Movie as Outright Mopologetics

[_Dr Exiled]

We've heard where a football coach tried this experiment to prove that it could be done, however he only used a 20 lb weight and was only marginally successful for a limited distance. There's a big difference between a 20 lb. weight and a 50 lb. weight. We can guarantee that if you got any normal, healthy, even stronger than average young man as Joseph reportedly was (and even one with healthy legs where there was no limp at all) and had him carry a 50 lb. dumbbell, even just one mile, that virtually any three men pursuing him could catch him almost immediately.

Recently, several students tried this experiment with a 50 lb. plate. It was very easy to catch the person running with the weight. They put their experiment on youtube here.

http://www.mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08wRRff8 ... annel_page

I’m not sure why the plates have importance anymore, not since the Church clarified that The Book of Mormon came out of a rock. What was the point of supposedly keeping them safe when they weren’t required in the first place? I wonder just how “honest” Witnesses is going to be...

The best response is that the plates were a prop for Joseph Smith's fantastical fraud story. This seems to be the only reason for their "importance." Also, this seems to be why there was a reluctance by the church to admit that the plates weren't even used in the supposed "translation" process, as this admission brings the process more to the mind of Joseph Smith and away from deity. Joseph Smith knew this and famously said his nebulous statement that the "translation" was by the gift and power of God.

As Doc said, this DCP fantastical rendition of the fraud story will lead some of the BYU students out as it will undoubtedly lead these students to research the issue to find out the real truth. There are so many holes in this tale that bringing it back up will do more harm than good. Running with plates to evade supposed attackers is stuff of a youthful imagination. Then he didn't even use the plates to create his Bible based racist story clearly showing that it was invented. Fast forward to today, if Nelson claimed today that he got the sealed portion of the plates to translate and wouldn't share them with the world, he would soon be a laughing stock and rightfully so.

[_Fence Sitter]

I wonder if that classic line from the one of the witnesses; "hey who here knows how to read reformed Egyptian?" made it into the film?

[_Lemmie]

Billy Shears has added an eloquent postscript to peterson’s witnesses-in-court scene

Billy Shears • 21 hours ago

The jurors further stated that more fundamentally, there were numerous irregularities about the case that made the witnesses story seem implausible.

For example, there was no evidence that the alleged victim Chauncey Gardner ever existed, other than the witnesses claim that they saw a stranger passing through town by the name of Chauncey Gardner get murdered. Other than the religious leader of the eleven witnesses, nobody else ever saw this mysterious stranger. Furthermore, there wasn’t even any evidence that a crime had been committed—there was no body. The witnesses claimed their religious leader took away the body and scrubbed the crime scene clean.

When asked why they scrubbed it clean as opposed to allowing the police to conduct a forensic investigation, the witnesses claimed that since there were eleven witnesses to the crime, no forensic evidence was needed.

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... testimony/

[bolding added to emphasize the insuperable weakness of the witnesses movie.]

Nice, Billy Shears, very nice.

[_I have a question]

I wonder...will the Witnesses film portray the fact that “By 1847, not one of the surviving eleven witnesses was part of the LDS Church” and answer the question “If they believed Joseph Smith's miraculous revelations from God were true, why would they have left the Church?”

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Just a hypothetical question. If one of the main characters in DCP's The Witness film was found out to have a pretty extensive criminal history and a recent divorce with allegations from several witnesses of physical and mental abuse, would that change how the audience perceived the film?

Just a hypothetical question. DCP, what are your thoughts?

[_Lemmie]

David B has been on a roll lately:

David B DanielPeterson • 20 hours ago

Yahoo, there were plates. Of course the plates lay hidden under a cloth during translation, it seems, so they weren't needed anyway.

Again the opposing council would have to point that out. "well, you saw plates did you?"

Emma: "uh..yeah"

"So what were the plates for? Were they used when Joseph "translated" and produced the Book of Mormon?"

E: "well no. They were hidden. Nobody was supposed to be looking at them when Joseph read off his words. But, sir, tHere's no way he could have read from anything aside from magical glowing words in his hat. He couldn't conceal a Bible from me or anything else known to man. He stuck his head in his hat, after putting a magic rock in there, and words appeared."

"did you see those words too? How do you know they appeared for him"

E: "well that's what he said, and he couldn't have tricked me. I would have caught him trying to trick me.

"If he did trick you, how would you know?"

E: "Well I couldn't figure out anyway he could have tricked me. So that means he simply could not have"

"Did he ever trick you about anything else?"

E: "um...I'd rather not say"

"what do you mean?"

E: "well he did marry other women and kept telling he'd stop or wouldn't anymore. Then I'd find out about some woman or young girl sniffing around...and sure enough..they were married. But I mean he had to, an angel told him he had to marry other women...so I forgave."

"well thank you very much. That will be all, your honor".

"You may step down miss Emma".

"Jury...we will let you adjourn to discuss teh facts....what's that? Oh, you've all already agreed? On what basis? Oh, I see, all the witnesses keep talking about hearing voices, seeing angels, magical rocks and the like? Well I have to say that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for your service on this case."

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/danp ... testimony/

Cross examination, for the win!

[_Doctor Scratch]

Just a hypothetical question. If one of the main characters in DCP's The Witness film was found out to have a pretty extensive criminal history and a recent divorce with allegations from several witnesses of physical and mental abuse, would that change how the audience perceived the film?

Just a hypothetical question. DCP, what are your thoughts?

Wow, EWC--those are explosive allegations, if true. What kind of "criminal history" are we talking about here? Drugs? Violent crimes? Or relatively small things like traffic violations? Something else entirely? If this turns out to be true, then I daresay it would be somewhat reminiscent of the scandal surrounding the remake of Birth of a Nation from a few years back. I wonder how something like this might impact the film's reception.

[_Lemmie]

DanielPeterson Mod David B • a day ago

David B: "Any witness today claiming to have seen angels, and hearing voices aren't considered credible from the outset."

Which, of course, is an interesting example of prejudgment, which is cognate with the word "prejudice."

Incidentally, neither the eight witnesses nor Emma Smith nor Josiah Stowell nor Lucy Mack Smith nor Katharine Smith nor Mary Musselman Whitmer claimed to have seen an angel or heard a supernatural voice.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... 4688223081

So, Peterson is admitting that none of the witnesses he listed are primary sources, or legitimate eyewitnesses to the supernatural source of the plates.

That’s quite an admission to make.

Although more concerning overall is that he considers those who dismiss supernatural data to be prejudiced.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Wow, EWC--those are explosive allegations, if true. What kind of "criminal history" are we talking about here? Drugs? Violent crimes? Or relatively small things like traffic violations? Something else entirely? If this turns out to be true, then I daresay it would be somewhat reminiscent of the scandal surrounding the remake of Birth of a Nation from a few years back. I wonder how something like this might impact the film's reception.

Well, hypothetically these crimes range from inattentive driving and several various class B and C misdemeanors. In addition, there is a hypothetical recent divorce with several (substantiated by witnesses) allegations of physical and mental abuse.

And all of this criminal history is public record, hypothetically speaking.

Who knows, maybe you need a hypothetical criminal to accurately play Joseph Smith. Hypothetically, of course.

[_Lemmie]

DanielPeterson Mod Dr. VelhoBurrinho • 3 days ago

VB: "outside of a little over a dozen individuals no one else can witness or testify of them in that manner."

It's no small thing that "a little over a dozen individuals" saw them and/or "hefted" them and testified of them over decades.

No, Peterson. You already admitted that the vast majority of those individuals saw no angel and heard no voice. They are second-hand witnesses, whose testimony amounts to little more than hearsay. All you can definitively say is they may have handled something. That’s not any sort of evidence.

When combined with the circumstances, all you’ve likely done is bring up hearsay that shows Joseph Smith was perpetuating a fraud.