honorentheos wrote:To argue that what Biden did doesn't matter absolutely reframes the impeachment inquiry as it turns the basis for Trump's call for an investigation into something that isn't obviously a political favor. It reframes everything. That's not the Overton window shifting. It's the facts of the case shifting and that should shift the conclusions associated with it.
Unbelievable.
So what you're saying is that (in this counterfactual where Biden is guilty), it would be totally fine for Trump to only release US aid when that foreign entity investigated the one instance of corruption that happens to focus on his political rival, so long as that political rival happens to be guilty. In that scenario, it's totally fine to coerce a foreign country to conduct a domestic investigation rather than properly tasking his own US intelligence agencies. If Biden's guilty, all of this is just peachy.
Is that it?
You're right; this is getting bizarre.
We literally did just that, threatening to withhold aid if the Ukraine failed to remove a corrupt PG.
Your argument essentially says if it's Trump it's bad, if it was the Obama administration then cool. The facts don't matter, just who was involved.
In reality, it's the facts that matter and why what Trump did is wrong and worthy of impeachment. Investing those facts is what makes a person more than a partisan <checks notes> moron.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
honorentheos wrote:Your argument essentially says if it's Trump it's bad, if it was the Obama administration then cool. The facts don't matter, just who was involved.
Oh right. Yeah, I was totally pissed when Obama withheld aid from Ukraine until they investigated Trump. That really pissed me off.
Facts matter.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Perfume on my Mind wrote:You know you've lost your mind when you start to call what Obama did exactly the same as what Trump did.
Take a moment to reflect on this.
I said what Biden did and what Trump did are different and those differences matter. It's the differences in what they did, not who did them, that matter.
You said it wouldn't matter if what Biden did was essentially the same as what Trump did, withholding aid from the Ukraine to benefit his son or for personal benefit.
As I've pointed out, if you assume what Biden did was actually what Republicans claim inspite clear evidence it isn't, then it reframes everything. And it's a stupid thing to have opened up this hypothetical. All we had to do was agree the facts mattered to this case. But nope.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
There’s a universe in which Joe Biden abused his office by placing pressure on Ukraine to sack a prosecutor to advantage a future job his son would get. If there were probable cause to believe this, the Trump led federal government would be justified pursuing investigation using normal DoJ processes presuming this wasn’t done selectively to harm a political opponent.
This isn’t even ballpark what happened, though, and Trump doesn’t get to unlawfully abuse his office to extort Ukraine and then obstruct investigation into it even if Biden were guilty in that upside down scenario.
EAllusion wrote:There’s a universe in which Joe Biden abused his office by placing pressure on Ukraine to sack a prosecutor to advantage a future job his son would get. If there were probable cause to believe this, the Trump led federal government would be justified pursuing investigation using normal DoJ processes presuming this wasn’t done selectively to harm a political opponent.
This isn’t even ballpark what happened, though,
Exactly what matters.
and Trump doesn’t get to unlawfully abuse his office to extort Ukraine and then obstruct investigation into it even if Biden were guilty in that upside down scenario.
It's be an entirely different universe where this hypothetical occurred. What is now clearly abuse of office looks a lot more like investigating serious wrong doing.
It's just a dumb avenue of "What If" to have gone down, in my opinion, but it looks insanely partisan and exactly like the thing that Republicans claim is going on with impeachment.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Obama would not have been justified preemptively arresting Paul Manafort for crimes against the nation just because it turns out he was guilty. You don’t get to abuse your office if it turns out your target was guilty.
Your self-parodic desire to find middle ground has got you arguing that whether a cop planting drugs on someone is ok hinges on whether they are a drug dealer. No it doesn’t.
honorentheos wrote:You said it wouldn't matter if what Biden did was essentially the same as what Trump did, withholding aid from the Ukraine to benefit his son or for personal benefit.
OK then, go find that quote of mine, and I will apologize for my part in this conversation.
If you can't find it... well, I won't expect an apology. You'll find something else to complain about... namely my leading you to read what I said incorrectly somehow.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
EAllusion wrote:Obama would not have been justified preemptively arresting Paul Manafort for crimes against the nation just because it turns out he was guilty. You don’t get to abuse your office if it turns out your target was guilty.
Your self-parodic desire to find middle ground has got you arguing that whether a cop planting drugs on someone is ok hinges on whether they are a drug dealer. No it doesn’t.
In this hypothetical, the drugs wouldn't be planted, the drug dealer had the drugs and was trying to sell them.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
honorentheos wrote:If Biden DID go to the president of Ukraine, withhold aid on the condition that they remove the PG and it was done to protect his son's client, it would be the scandal of the decade.
Pffft. Yeah, that would be the scandal. It's like you've had your head in the sand for 3 years.
But OK, honor. If you say so.
*shrug*
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa