The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

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_The Stig
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _The Stig »

Gadianton wrote:Yikes, Stig, I'm not sure I'm processing what you're saying. For now, welcome, and let me say that the greatest difficulty I had accepting The Grand Tour was the lack of The Stig.


Indeed, the trio continued to be outstanding, but The Stig was sorely missed. The "replacements" at Top Gear were not up to the task and The Stig was left to scarcity and little humor.

Doctor Scratch wrote:The Stig:

Welcome aboard! I join Dean Robbers in finding your message baffling: my goodness, is this really true? Which means, of course, that I also join the Reverend in saying that I think many here--myself among them--would be very curious to learn your story!


Well, I will put something together for the masses when I have a moment. But, I can assure you it is the truth - I no longer believe in the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Moreover, my very belief in the probability of the Divine went to near-zero shortly thereafter. There are a number of long-time posters on this board who have known for years about my loss of faith and have become good friends of mine. They are welcome to speak up if they so choose. Additionally, if you spend a little time searching on MDDB, you'll see I've come and gone there over the past few years and that I haven't kept secret my non-belief over there for at least the last couple of years (Scott Lloyd, especially, dislikes me, these days). Really, Scratch. Are you slipping? An "informant" didn't tell you about this years ago? What a shame. You might need to work on strengthening your network.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Jersey Girl »

The Stig wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:Well, there has been more than one, no? Philo is perhaps the most prominent, though if I'm not mistaken, Darth J "went over to the dark side" during this period as well. And there is also Stem. There may be others I've overlooked, but you are right that they deserve acknowledgment. Their contributions have been appreciated.


You can add me to the list - the poster formerly known as "ttribe."

What do you say, Scratch? Shall we convert our truce to a more permanent cessation of hostilities? It has been 9 years, after all.


Hey tt!
:-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Gadianton
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Gadianton »

Stig,

Did the antics of the apologists at MDD contribute to your loss of faith? I'd be torn on that one because so much lame and reprehensible nonsense issues forth from them, but at the same time they're out in la la land and not relevant to what the membership actually believes.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I hope TT/The Stig follows through with his exit story. Super interested.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Shulem
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Shulem »

The Stig wrote: Really, Scratch. Are you slipping? An "informant" didn't tell you about this years ago? What a shame. You might need to work on strengthening your network.


Oh, I wouldn't say so. Dr. Scratch is the pillar of strength when it comes to penetrating Mormon apologetics. He's a super hero. He has eyes and ears that see and hear like nobody can.

Our hero.

:smile:
_Rosebud
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Rosebud »

I like the decisions you made, Doctor Scratch.

What a decade. My hope for the 2020s is that my people will spend less time and money fighting over myths and more time and money improving reality.

I feel that enough nonsense has ended for me to share a document of interest to this community.

I don't follow your community's exploits much because from where I sit, both sides' time and money would be better spent addressing reality than harming and defending honor and myths. None of this is really about god despite any lies believers tell themselves or any desires exMormons have to harm "true" belief. This is about people; it always has been and it always will be.

All of that said, I do appreciate the historical value of what has occurred in the last decade, on both a personal level and a on broader basis.

As far as I can tell, this document is not in the public domain yet.... but it's hard for me to say considering the fact that I don't keep up with your world of exploits. Either way, here it is.

The Document:

link to the original

My Take on "Dubious 'Mormon' Stories"
M o r g a n *** D a v i s
Monday, March 26, 2012

Dear Dan and Louis:

I’m grateful to Dan for hearing me out on the phone today, despite a very hectic schedule and a heavy emotional burden. I voiced some misgivings I have been feeling in growing intensity for the past several days about the article he had told me was being prepared about John Dehlin. I can’t account for the rise in anxiety I feel, but it continues to intrude on my thoughts. I have a friend in my ward who is struggling with his faith and has resorted to the Mormon Stories community for support. In speaking with him yesterday, I mentioned my concerns about this putative article, and he, in turn, messaged John Dehlin. This was unbeknownst to me until I learned from Dan today that Dehlin was now waging an email campaign to forestall this article, based on my friend’s message. The note from my friend, copied in Dehlin’s email, says:

Hi, John. I don't want to get in the middle of any drama, and especially don't want to get any started up, but I did think you deserve a heads up, in case you are not already aware: I spoke with a friend (who also happens to be one of your Facebook Friends) who works at the Maxwell Institute today, and he mentioned that some of the other guys there are working on publishing something about you that I imagine will be something of a hit piece. You may already be aware of it, and maybe aren't too concerned what a paranoid ultra-conservative apologetic group was to say anyway. My friend did say that he will be attempting to dissuade them over the next few days from putting out the piece. Hopefully he will be successful and the drama will be avoided completely.


I don’t remember exactly what I said to my friend, but I did not characterize the Institute as a paranoid, ultra-conservative place, nor the forthcoming article as a hit piece. Those are his terms. I hadn’t seen the article and only knew that it was focused on a critique of Dehlin. I did say that if it was overly personal or negative that I would try to convince you not to publish it.

After having spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me this morning, Dan kindly arranged for me to have a look at the article and requested that I submit any comments I have. He said he does not want the piece to be harmful to others, and I have never doubted Dan’s sincerity. (By the way, as of today, this piece is still being copy edited by Don. It is not yet in typesetting, as Dan thought it might be). Anyway, now that I have had a chance to page through it, albeit cursorily, I have to say, I’m very concerned. So, now I really am going to try to persuade you not to publish it in its present form. Wish me luck!

This is an exposé about a person, John Dehlin, and those who are inclined to be sympathetic in any way to him will rightly see it as an attack piece. It is an attack. To what purpose?

The stated purpose is to warn the faithful away from Dehlin by subjecting his words to careful scrutiny in order to highlight the clumsy, the ill-stated, the two-minded, the disingenuous—all in order to discredit him and anyone else in a similar, floundering condition. I would argue, however, that the real audience for this essay will not really be the unsuspecting Saint who needs to be cautioned away from what they might find at MormonStories.org. A screed is not the proper instrument for achieving that. Few, if any, in that demographic need, or will be willing to skim through one-hundred pages of minutia about John Dehlin to get the point. The true audience here are those who are already offended by Dehlin and who are eager to have their sense of being opposed to him vindicated and to imagine him writhing in discomfort as his personal incongruities are laid bare. The writing has been worked over carefully, but there is still the clear note of a sneer in its tone.

This is a punitive expedition. Dehlin is being made an example of, and he is being held up for derision, together with many of his interlocutors on Facebook and elsewhere. What else is one to make of the, to me, unprecedented tactic of posting the contents of deleted Facebook posts (retrieved via internet archives) together with the names of those who posted them—not just of Dehlin, but of his Facebook friends who had no idea that their words would be retrieved and published this way? What if these posts were deleted because the posters themselves did not wish to stand by them? Too late now, their names are going into print with their wavering comments-of-the-moment for all posterity to review (see, for example, the paragraph that begins "Dehlin's Facebook wall was plastered with well-wishers"). So, already this is not just about Dehlin, it is also about the community of seeking, questioning Saints with whom he interacts. Many of them are mentioned by name. This is precisely the kind of damaging spill-over effect that I was
afraid of.

Before going any further, allow me to propose a vision for the kind of apologetics that we can and should be doing "unapologetically" at the Institute. I trust that these points will not be controversial, since I have heard you yourselves make them before. First, we should be commending the faith. We should be rejoicing, in print, in the glorious gospel and basking in its life-giving light. We should, as we have always done, revel in the riches of the scriptures—their narrative, structural, doctrinal, and linguistic complexities and wonders. We should continue to encourage and promote those who are doing this kind of faithful and faith-promoting scholarship, and we should learn from and emulate the best work being done on the scriptures and Church history (and there are some stunning recent examples of both).

We also, however, should, indeed, be defending the faith—but not by singling out individuals for attacks on their integrity, their faith, their methods, or their motives, even if we feel we might have cause or good evidence against them. Exposés of individual Saints, faithful or otherwise, should simply be off the menu, and here is why. The Maxwell Institute continues to suffer from the hurt we did to our own image years ago by indulging in this kind of "defense." To this day we are not seen by some scholars and questioners as serious and fair-minded, but rather as a group who are willing to stoop to attacks on a petty, personal level for the sake of our own entertainment and to settle scores with those whose tactics we deplore even more. John Dehlin, in his email campaign, cites several anonymous examples of Saints who say they were turned off by this. I’m afraid there are many more.

To be fair-minded does not mean that we must be passive or even unbiased. We are and should be avowedly partisans of the Church and the truth claims of the Church. But when it comes to defending the faith, we should remain steadfastly in the arena of proper scholarly discourse, and that means being focused on history and its interpretation; the scriptures and their interpretation; material and cultural forms of Mormonism; and, importantly, on the epistemological and hermeneutical approaches that have the power to open up room for faith in the midst of modern and post-modern milieux. We should be prepared to challenge those who make specious claims or weak arguments and point out, in the respectful tone of academic discourse, where we see them to be in error.

Ours can be a positive voice. We might not have all the answers, but we can set up a beacon to any Saint who sincerely wants to live a life of faith. We can be a shelter to those who question and have doubts. Our end-in-mind should be to one day be regarded as a safe-haven for those who love the scriptures and for anyone who is troubled by questions about them and wants to feel that there is a faithful way forward, even if all of the answers are not given. In order to create that environment of trust and confidence, we must actively and decisively work to shed and counteract our old reputation of being intellects on a hill who make specific apostates and anti-Mormons look ridiculous for a living. There is so much at stake, and there is so much serious work to do, we must be done with such tactics or anything even remotely resembling such tactics.

What about those who might unsuspectingly get tangled up in the testimony-challenging talk at sites like those hosted by John Dehlin? How are they to be protected? This is important, since it is the stated intent—but will not be the effect—of this article. We should, indeed, have a way to signal to our readership whether certain websites or blogs are, in our judgement, fair, honest, accurate, well-intentioned, & etc. We can do this in much the same way that we do with books and articles—by reviewing them. But to be successful in helping vulnerable souls, we also need to be credible as an Institution, with a reputation for a demeanor that is open, friendly, and fair, so that those who need to be warned away from the thickets will trust such reviews and take them seriously. I know this demeanor is possible, because you personally both have such demeanors. And yet, somehow this comes as news to many people who haven’t met you but have been reading your apologetics for years.

Smith's article is not a review of a website or blog or forum. It is a review of a human being and will have the diametrically opposite effect of promoting the Institute as a place that is open, honest, friendly, or fair. We should leave investigations into the faithfulness and integrity of individuals who claim affiliation with Mormonism to the priesthood authorities who hold the keys to make such judgements. Stunningly, Smith's review of Dehlin's status as a member includes an extensive review of the times when Dehlin met with his local priesthood authorities. Smith takes it upon himself to show where, in his remote, not-face-to-face, not-personally-connected judgment, either they were not thorough enough, or Dehlin was dissembling enough to convince his leaders that, at least at that point in 2011, he should remain in good
standing.

It is improper to second-guess local priesthood authorities in print, just as it is improper to second-guess in print what the Brethren might be saying behind closed doors—even if we are sure we are right. When official church action is taken, and where this is known publicly, it might sometimes be germane as context—but only context—for a person’s assertions, claims, and arguments. The personal lives and faith-states of individual living persons should not be a subject for review and judgement (final, intermediate, or otherwise) by the official organs of the institute that bears the name of Neal A. Maxwell. The Institute itself will be degraded if we engage in such, and I am certain that Elder Maxwell would be ashamed. But more than that, I believe that souls are at stake. More souls will be offended than led to safety by this kind of intrusive journalism. Would the editors of the MSR feel fairly treated if anti-Mormons used these kinds of tactics to embarrass the Saints?

As painful as it may be to admit, I think that John Dehlin’s success is in some ways a measure of our failure to model the kind of open, welcoming, and sympathetic approach to those who question that he states as his goal. People vote with their feet and with their subscriptions. And, judging purely by those metrics, we have not done a good enough job of creatively opening up safe places for those seeking answers to tough questions and those seeking communities of support for the process of working through challenging issues. Do we have such a forum, where faithful guidance is available and where others on similar journeys can support each other? Do we admit any kind of dialogue into our efforts? There is not even a place for reader responses in MSR. It is not enough to provide good information and interesting podcasts, it seems. It is outreach and non-judgmental dialogue that people are attracted to, and, apparently, they are finding it more readily under Dehlin’s canopy than ours. Shall we try to attract them to us by lobbing stones at them?

If I have been persuasive at all, I will have created a problem about what to do with this very lengthy piece that is the core of the next issue of MSR, which is already over-due. I apologize I didn't find my voice sooner. But if the arguments in this memo carry any merit, then it is more important that the piece on Dehlin not be published in its current form than almost anything else—including missed deadlines and other inconveniences. The second part of Smith’s article seems to deal with more substantive matters that are at least potentially proper topics for a critical review (though, near the end, the tone really starts to slide toward snide, and Smith’s use of Iago and Othello is annoying and confusing.) Perhaps with the right mix of will and effort, some of the second part could be reshaped into a proper and much more cogent review of the Mormon Stories project in general, or of the way certain topics have been treated there. But here I would urge a turn away from merely poking holes in arguments or critiquing the discussions that people are having on-line. That just leaves people with poked arguments, it doesn’t satisfy their desire to find truth. What we should be offering in the same places and at the same times we critique certain things are compelling reasons not to give up on the scriptures and the faith; compelling reasons why these enrich lives and bless a robust and unfrightened disposition to believe and to contribute to a covenant community. This article is counterproductive of that aim.

Years ago, there was a famous critique of Cleon Skousen’s The Naked Capitalist published in Dialogue. The author worked through the arguments of that book and then had this to say about them:

The Naked Capitalist sets brother against brother. It divides the Saints into angry, hostile camps…. Such a radical and false ideology, no matter how cleverly packaged and rationalized, does not teach us to love our neighbors or forgive others; it does not open us to the sanctifying effects of the Spirit. There is nothing edifying in its bleak message…. We are not commissioned to win this world for the Lord by joining some seedy and unseemly political mass movement like that offered by the New Left or the Radical Right. No conspiracy, not even a Skousen-type Super-Conspiracy, can possibly frustrate the Kingdom of God; the Saints need not fear the corruption of this world if they keep their eyes and hearts on the Master (Louis Midgley, “Round Table Review: The Naked Capitalist” in Dialogue 6 no. 3–4
[Fall/Winter 1971]: 99–116 ).


Perhaps this is an unfair comparison, but I cannot help but feel that some of the same language that Louis used to express his sense of why Skousen was out of line then applies in this case as well. If our claim in this article is that Dehlin is drawing people away and dividing us, we will be, in the very act of publishing this piece, enacting and confirming and deepening that divide. This is not what we should be about.

I know that you love a good fight. I know that you are capable of producing counter arguments to everything I have said here. I am not interested in a point by point debate over each detail. Rather, I want to zoom out and simply ask, how deeply will you be offended if this piece is not published? Will your faith be shaken? Will you feel that you have no place among a community that you are searching for a way to stay with? How much violence will not publishing this piece do to your dream of Zion?

Speaking very personally now, I can not imagine the Savior writing something like this article on John Dehlin and his Facebook friends, or commissioning anything like it in feel or tone. I honestly cannot imagine that most of the Brethren would feel that this treatment is necessary or appropriate. Mormon Stories has been around for years, and the Church has never seen fit to publicly critique it, though we know they have become quite adept at doing so when they want to. Smith’s article might be factually tight in every part (though I am dubious even of that), but it is still totally wrong. The spirit of it is wrong. No good will come of it. It will create more problems than it solves, inflict deeper wounds than it heals. It will be offensive not only to people on the borders of the faith, but to many, many of us deep within as well who want desperately to find ways to comfort those who stand in need of comfort, not rub salt in their wounds. I know I am not alone in this sentiment here at the Institute; at BYU; or in broader, faithful LDS circles. Acrimony, confusion, and darkness will be the fruits if this is published. The pain I and many others feel will be deep. There must be a more excellent way.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I apologize for any unintended hurt. My sincere desire is only to be helpful.

Yours with respect, fear, and trembling,

Morgan




The above was attached to the email below:


From: M o r g a n *** D a v i s <___________@BYU.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 7:28 PM
Subject: Hope
To: "johndehlin@gmail.com" <johndehlin@gmail.com>
Cc: "__________.edu" <_____________.edu>

Dear John:

Here is what I submitted earlier this week and have circulated to other sympathetic parties throughout the week. I see it not only as addressing the immediate problem we face, but the larger question of what kind of discourse we should be about as a community. J i m * F a u l c o n e r was one I shared it with, and after witnessing Louis's performance last night, Jim wrote a letter of his own to Jerry Bradford, our director, urging that something be done.

But the clincher was your phone call. It followed the path that I suggested it would, with the addition of an unnamed member of the Twelve (I'm guessing Elder Holland) added in. Jenson called him, he called Samuelson, and Samuelson called Jerry, who was ready for the call because of the discussions we've been having, and asked for something in writing, which we now have. Sorry I can't share that document, but it is an outstanding piece of counsel that has come to us from Pres. Samuelson—one that I really see as potentially not only bringing a resolution to this immediate crisis, but also moving us toward that larger goal of some serious internal reflection and long-term change here.

The editors could still choose to take their article (100 MS pages) to non-BYU affiliated venues like their personal blogs, or FAIR, I suppose, but given the strength of this signal from The Powers That Be, I expect they they will think better.

Be watching your seismograph Monday morning when Jerry meets with Dan and Louis. There could still be additional drama, but thank you for what you have done to help me/us improve this little corner of Mormondom. I still dream that it might become relevant in the Mormon conversation again someday. We have a lot of repenting and work to do first, but I have a little more hope today.

M o r g a n


EDIT: Formatting of copy/paste of email
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_The Stig
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _The Stig »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I hope TT/The Stig follows through with his exit story. Super interested.

- Doc


Answered: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52838
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Rosebud wrote:I like the decisions you made, Doctor Scratch.

[SNIP!]

The Document:

link to the original

[SNIP!]


EDIT: Formatting of copy/paste of email

Wow, Rosebud: thank you very much for posting this--it is of enormous historical value. I'll have more to say about this later.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Maksutov
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Maksutov »

Rosebud wrote:Snip all kinds of text without established provenance


How are we to know this is authentic? Obsessive people like yourself have shown themselves to be willing to do all kinds of things. :rolleyes:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Rosebud
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Re: The Best of the 2010s: A Mopologetic Decade in Review

Post by _Rosebud »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Wow, Rosebud: thank you very much for posting this--it is of enormous historical value. I'll have more to say about this later.

You're welcome. Thank you for making ranking decisions that demonstrated to me it was worth posting.

Here is another email exchange that may be of some, although lesser, value:

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 1:33 PM, John Dehlin <johndehlin@gmail.com> wrote:Scott,

Do you have a few minutes for a home chat?

On Apr 13, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Scott Gordon <president@fairlds.org> wrote:Hi John,

I'm running today--but I will be able to respond to emails. The other option is to wait until next week when I would have more time.

Scott

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM, John Dehlin <johndehlin@gmail.com> wrote:It's about the article being written about me. It can wait until next week as long as you're not planning on publishing it before then.

Sent from my iPhone

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Scott Gordon <president@fairlds.org> wrote:John,

I'm curious. Why would you think we are publishing an article on you? Who said that we were?

Scott

On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Scott Gordon <president@fairlds.org> wrote:FYI,

FAIR is not writing an article about you at the current time, and I know of no current plans to do so.

John Dehlin <johndehlin@gmail.com> Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 3:11 PM wrote:Quick summary (please keep this between us...the Maxwell institute has asked that this not leak...though feel free to confirm w/ DCP if you'd like):

* Greg Smith wrote a 100 page "hit piece" directly about me for the Maxwell institute.

* Someone told me about it before it got published (this all happened the week of the UVU conference, by the way..which was part of why it was a bit charged for me).

* A few general authorities, one apostle, and the president of BYU got involved, and told the Maxwell institute that they didn't think publishing that article was good for the church

* The decision was made to not publish the article w/ the Maxwell institute

* The piece was given back to Greg Smith, who works with FAIR

* I've been told that Greg might be publishing the piece with FAIR since it was turned down at Maxwell.

* If you are going to publish the piece, I'd love a chance to help you make sure that this is something the brethren think would be valuable vs. harmful for the church, especially since 3 GA's have already ruled on the matter, and given the very direct and clear feedback we've received from our survey:

From respondent 2108: “The biggest factor was the professional apologists. I watched FARMS and FAIR apologists treat people horribly. For example, Professor Daniel C. Peterson used to lurk on the Recovery from Mormonism site so that he could snatch up quotes from the people posting there, in order to humiliate them. This, coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics (i.e., with ad hominem attack), was the lynchpin.// I would encourage him/them to do something about the apologists. I think they are the worst aspect of the current Church.”

From respondent 1746: “On honesty, stop leaving it to the apologetics. They are terrible and are doing more damage than good to people’s testimonies with their poor answers. For example....Book of Abraham.”

From respondent 1865: “Please stop the ridiculous apologetics. Their circular reasoning and logical fallacies do more harm than good.”

From respondent 2122: “Please stop with the apologetic as well. Fair and the Maxwell Institute contributed to my leaving the church.”

From respondent 2844: “As I studied Church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for answers (e.g. FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute), Shields, FAIR). I soon discovered those sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issue and frequently resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information.”

* I'd also prefer that none of this become public information (out of respect for the GA's involved), but if you guys were to publish the piece...then I'd feel forced to publicly relay the whole story...which again...I don't think anyone would benefit from.

I'm very happy to hear that you have no plans to publish this article. Can you please let me know if this ever changes BEFORE you publish the article? I'd like to save you, me, the church, and Mormonism one big headache if I can. I don't think anyone wins via ad hominem arguments....except the enemies of the church. They certainly win.

Also, if you're interested in having a direct, public dialogue about me, Mormon Stories, the Open Stories Foundation, what FAIR calls "critics," or whatever you'd like at the FAIR conference (or anywhere else..including the FAIR podcast), I'd be more than happy to go on the record publicly and discuss what we're trying to do -- without you or others having to dig up dirt on or smear me, or take things out of context. You just have to ask.

I'd also love to get feedback from you guys on how we can do a better job at what we're trying to do. I think it could be really healthy/constructive, and could even help improve FAIR's reputation and visibility....to show that they're willing to engage in direct dialogue with constructive goals in mind (much like you did at the UVU conference)....vs. use the same old tactics.

Thanks Scott. I appreciate you responding. I really do. I believe that you are a good man...and I believe that if we step away from old habits, we can actually achieve constructive breakthroughs.

John Dehlin

John bcc'd me on the April 14th, 3:11pm email
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
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