John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Lemmie
_Emeritus
Posts: 10590
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:25 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _Lemmie »

Kishkumen:

The point to identifying the epistemology informing the practice of history in the community is to get away from a loaded, prejudicial assessment of the community's way of talking about the past.

Yes, I can agree with that. In my opinion, your approach is as loaded and prejudicial as you think mine is. How do we find a neutral ground?

All we are doing here is going back and forth about the necessity of adopting a naturalistic history in the community in order to practice history morally and safely.

I disagree. We are talking about honestly portraying history, a behavior inherent in the leadership position, not the telling of a factual story. behavior is not the same as story line.
_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _Meadowchik »

fetchface wrote:I guess I may have neglected to state earlier that my point of view on this subject assumes that the leaders are true believers. If not, then they are obviously very unethical people on a great many counts. I believe that Joseph Smith falls into this latter category with his only excuse for his behavior being a likely personality disorder.

Going back and thinking about the example that Physics Guy raised about flat-earthers, I really can't see any circumstance where a true believer is going to enthusiastically share information that challenges their worldview. It just isn't going to happen. First instinct is going to be to reject the evidence as suspect and hide it (out of genuine concern at first, right? Who wants to spread misinformation?). As it becomes more and more clear that the evidence is not faulty to the true believer, the next step is going to be to assimilate the information with a complex explanation about why it isn't a problem, or for evidence that cannot be assimilated, a complex theory explaining why the "false" evidence looks so true, usually involving a vast conspiracy.

What I see when I look at the evolving Mormon faithful historical narrative is a group of true believers following this process. I mean, read Jeffrey Holland's talk from the '70s about the continents rearranging themselves under a global flood ca. 2300BC. That's nuts! You don't see him giving talks like that today. He's definitely assimilated some facts into his not-so-dodo mind.

What I see is guys who grew up learning how fantastic Joseph Smith was just like I did, and they are wrestling with new information just like I did. I wasn't inclined to fight very hard to maintain belief as I have always felt oppressed and unfulfilled in the church, but I did fight for a while, and I did follow these steps to reject contrary information.

The arguments that I am seeing in favor of the brethren's behavior being immoral seem to assume that the brethren know the validity of the contrary facts. While this may be true of a particular fact and a particular leader from time to time, I think that the vast majority of unflattering historical facts are still being fought against in most leader's minds, sitting in a pile of insane spaghetti logic between their ears.

This whole process is stupid, and strongly illustrates how flawed human reasoning is on average, but I just don't see it as "immoral." I just see it as unfortunate and sad.


I can understand that level of ignorance from a lay member or local leader.

When I held my first child, it was not the first time I held a baby. But this was my baby. The significance was fundamental.

Apostles of the church are fundamentally in a different position of responsibility. Like a train operator is more than the ticket taker. Once they become apostles, they have so much more moral responsibility. They are representing God to people in a way unmatched by any of their previous positions. They then take on more moral obligations and frankly they also do it full time. Thus they have more ability and opportunity to do the job of representing God than they likely ever had before.

Holland has revealed some of his internal thinking which in my opinion reveals that he knows there are problems, but he continues to go on in faith even believing that even the wrong road for the whole church, if it takes it, is God's will. I think this choice is an example of immoral reasoning given his position.

Likewise I think Packers CES speech was an example of immoral reasoning. I even think that Nelson's focus on Mormon when there are much more pressing needs for correction is another example of immoral reasoning. Oaks insistence on not apologizing is an example of profound failure of his moral reasoning.

I would say that something about LDS apostleship likely screws up their moral reasoning. Maybe the second anointing is part of that.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Physics Guy
_Emeritus
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _Physics Guy »

fetchface wrote:I really can't see any circumstance where a true believer is going to enthusiastically share information that challenges their worldview. It just isn't going to happen. First instinct is going to be to reject the evidence as suspect and hide it (out of genuine concern at first, right? Who wants to spread misinformation? As it becomes more and more clear that the evidence is not faulty to the true believer, the next step is going to be to assimilate the information with a complex explanation about why it isn't a problem, or for evidence that cannot be assimilated, a complex theory explaining why the "false" evidence looks so true, usually involving a vast conspiracy.

I accept that initial rejection of adverse evidence is only natural. It's even quite reasonable. Plenty of true things have been confronted with pieces of seemingly contradictory evidence, only to have been vindicated eventually. If clear vindication doesn't come, though, but only awkward excuses, then my feeling is that one can only go on accepting the excuses for so long before it becomes irresponsible for a leader to keep on telling the flock that all is well.

What I see when I look at the evolving Mormon faithful historical narrative is a group of true believers following this process. I mean, read Jeffrey Holland's talk from the '70s about the continents rearranging themselves under a global flood ca. 2300BC. That's nuts! You don't see him giving talks like that today. He's definitely assimilated some facts into his not-so-dodo mind.

Wow. I may have been failing to take into account just how bizarrely benighted a lot of supposedly educated Americans have still been in my lifetime. I've never lived in those parts of the country.

The arguments that I am seeing in favor of the brethren's behavior being immoral seem to assume that the brethren know the validity of the contrary facts. While this may be true of a particular fact and a particular leader from time to time, I think that the vast majority of unflattering historical facts are still being fought against in most leader's minds, sitting in a pile of insane spaghetti logic between their ears.

This whole process is stupid, and strongly illustrates how flawed human reasoning is on average, but I just don't see it as "immoral." I just see it as unfortunate and sad.

Well, if the Mormon leaders are really still in a stage of recognizing problems themselves, then maybe they're mostly still in honest territory, and just moving more slowly than I would have expected people of their intelligence and experience to be moving at this point.

Perhaps what I would say is that for the Mormon leaders to maintain their current position indefinitely would be immoral. If they keep moving on from here then maybe I'll accept that they were doing the best they could, given their personal starting points.

I still think that leaders have an obligation to do the right thing more quickly than ordinary members, because if there are cats that finally get let out of the bag five years from now instead of this year, then in five years there may be hundreds of thousands of people who are angry at having wasted five years of their lives that could have been better spent.

Ultimately the unfortunate and sad situation is one that the leaders do have the power to change. At some point that buck has to stop with them. Leaders, and especially leaders who are supposed to be prophets and seers, cannot just plead forever that they are only dust in their cultural wind.
_fetchface
_Emeritus
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _fetchface »

Physics Guy wrote:I still think that leaders have an obligation to do the right thing more quickly than ordinary members, because if there are cats that finally get let out of the bag five years from now instead of this year, then in five years there may be hundreds of thousands of people who are angry at having wasted five years of their lives that could have been better spent.

Ultimately the unfortunate and sad situation is one that the leaders do have the power to change. At some point that buck has to stop with them. Leaders, and especially leaders who are supposed to be prophets and seers, cannot just plead forever that they are only dust in their cultural wind.

Yes, the other unfortunate piece to this puzzle is that the system of selection for LDS leadership highly favors guardian type personalities. Every time they enter the room for their meetings, they enter in order of seniority. They are highly deferential to seniority in their meetings as well (I don't know if you have seen the leaked video of their meetings, but the more junior apostles hardly speak at all, the senior ones clearly dominate).

This is why I brought up Jonathan Haidt earlier, because before I read his work I guess I just didn't understand how people like that thought at all. Their moral reasoning is very different than mine. I may honestly think it is inferior, but I have to grant that they are using a (mostly) consistent process and since morality is all in our heads anyway, I can't say objectively that they are wrong. It pains me to say this, but I think some of what I consider flaws in their moral reasoning have heavily contributed to the success of our species. The Mormon leaders have certainly succeeded in creating one of the largest, most cohesive groups I have ever seen.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
_fetchface
_Emeritus
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _fetchface »

Meadowchik wrote:Likewise I think Packers CES speech was an example of immoral reasoning. I even think that Nelson's focus on Mormon when there are much more pressing needs for correction is another example of immoral reasoning. Oaks insistence on not apologizing is an example of profound failure of his moral reasoning.

I would say that something about LDS apostleship likely screws up their moral reasoning. Maybe the second anointing is part of that.

I agree that the second anointing probably does nothing to make these guys better people.

And your above statement is why I was citing Haidt earlier. I was alluding to the fact that a lot of these guys honestly believe that submission to authority and loyalty are moral positives (independent of what that loyalty and submission to authority is trying to get you to do). This is a very foreign way of thinking to me (and probably to you) but it is indeed the way they think.

To simply dismiss and condemn this way of thinking as immoral doesn't help us understand how these incentives for being less-than-honest happen, nor does it help us reach these types of people with our arguments. That's where I'd like to get to.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
_fetchface
_Emeritus
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _fetchface »

Kishkumen wrote:The religion as a system places revelation at the foundation of its epistemology.

I seem to remember a blurb on the church website that stated explicitly that spiritual confirmation is more sure than information we gather with our 5 senses. I can't seem to find it at the moment but I'll keep looking.

ETA: Not the one I was looking for, but interesting:
Glenn Pace, 1989 wrote:What can we learn about balance from the recent fuss about historical documents? The lessons on straying off center are vivid. Would the discovery of any document, no matter how contradictory to what you believe to be true, destroy your testimony? It may raise some intellectual questions, but it need not destroy your testimony. There is an avenue to truth greater than intellect and more certain than the five senses. The most glorious of all avenues to truth is direct revelation from heaven. A saving testimony will never come from a spectacular historical or archaeological find, and a testimony need never be lost on the basis of such a find.


2nd ETA: Found it!
Church Website wrote:We can receive a sure testimony of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ only by the power of the Holy Ghost. His communication to our spirit carries far more certainty than any communication we can receive through our natural senses.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _Meadowchik »

fetchface wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:Likewise I think Packers CES speech was an example of immoral reasoning. I even think that Nelson's focus on Mormon when there are much more pressing needs for correction is another example of immoral reasoning. Oaks insistence on not apologizing is an example of profound failure of his moral reasoning.

I would say that something about LDS apostleship likely screws up their moral reasoning. Maybe the second anointing is part of that.

I agree that the second anointing probably does nothing to make these guys better people.

And your above statement is why I was citing Haidt earlier. I was alluding to the fact that a lot of these guys honestly believe that submission to authority and loyalty are moral positives (independent of what that loyalty and submission to authority is trying to get you to do). This is a very foreign way of thinking to me (and probably to you) but it is indeed the way they think.

To simply dismiss and condemn this way of thinking as immoral doesn't help us understand how these incentives for being less-than-honest happen, nor does it help us reach these types of people with our arguments. That's where I'd like to get to.


I haven't been dismissive of it, neither is the OP, because it is contemplating and elaborating on why it is wrong. As have I been arguing specifically why it is wrong.

There is value in calling it immoral if it is, providing an argument on why is even better because then it makes space like I have made to let people separate their conclusions about the action from their conclusions about the actors respective characters.

The argument isn't necessarily meant to directly change Oaks mind, but it can help drive change by comforting and reassuring those who have been harmed, that indeed nice-seeming people can do very bad things and that they do have reason to feel hurt. This is in a community that discourages such recognition of any whisper of being hurt by the church.
_fetchface
_Emeritus
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _fetchface »

Meadowchik wrote:I haven't been dismissive of it, neither is the OP, because it is contemplating and elaborating on why it is wrong. As have I been arguing specifically why it is wrong.

There is value in calling it immoral if it is, providing an argument on why is even better because then it makes space like I have made to let people separate their conclusions about the action from their conclusions about the actors respective characters.

The argument isn't necessarily meant to directly change Oaks mind, but it can help drive change by comforting and reassuring those who have been harmed, that indeed nice-seeming people can do very bad things and that they do have reason to feel hurt. This is in a community that discourages such recognition of any whisper of being hurt by the church.

I guess I fundamentally disagree that there is a clear-cut objective system of morality and ethics and have been entirely unsuccessful in persuading you of this.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
_Meadowchik
_Emeritus
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _Meadowchik »

fetchface wrote:I guess I fundamentally disagree that there is a clear-cut objective system of morality and ethics and have been entirely unsuccessful in persuading you of this.


Well do you agree that the church has hurt people?

This is part of the feedback in the information loop. If you favor less harm, hopefully you favor the airing of the information.
_fetchface
_Emeritus
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Re: John Dehlin on the Immorality of Mormonism!

Post by _fetchface »

Meadowchik wrote:Well do you agree that the church has hurt people?

This is part of the feedback in the information loop. If you favor less harm, hopefully you favor the airing of the information.

Yes on both counts. But that is my system of morality, based on my prioritization of moral principles. And there are certainly situations where I think that causing harm or hiding information is the right thing to do.
Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
My Blog: http://untanglingmybrain.blogspot.com/
Post Reply