Why don't Mormons believe Joseph Smith on Book of Mormon geography?

[_Holy Ghost]

I think the reason that apologists throw Joseph Smith under the bus on some topics, such as the Supposed location of Book of Mormon events, is because what Jospeh asserted on those topics can now be easily and unequivocally demonstrated to be untrue. However, they will phrase this dismissal of Joseph Smith as simply accepting that he was speaking as a man when he made those claims. It seems you can only tell Joseph Smith was speaking as a man when it later becomes untenable to portray what he said as Prophetic. For instance, ask members to give some examples of things Mr Nelson has said that they consider are him mistakenly speaking as a prophet but in reality what he said was simply him speaking as a man.

How do they relegate "the visions of the past being opened to my [Joseph Smith's] understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty" as speaking as a man, just his own opinions?

[_Holy Ghost]

Because a Ph.d is vastly superior to a mere boy prophet with a doubtful and squirrelish education in red neck America of the early 1800's. Ph.d's just know more and know better, and it is better to place faith in their theories than with what Joseph Smith said. Isn't that right Dr. Peterson and Dr. Midgley?

For the apologists the geography of the Mormon book is not important for "spiritual growth" (whatever that means). So in the mind of an apologist you just created a straw man.

Why then cannot the entirety of the Book of Mormon, including its existence, be tossed as not important for "spiritual growth" (whatever that means)?

[_I have a question]

I think the reason that apologists throw Joseph Smith under the bus on some topics, such as the Supposed location of Book of Mormon events, is because what Jospeh asserted on those topics can now be easily and unequivocally demonstrated to be untrue. However, they will phrase this dismissal of Joseph Smith as simply accepting that he was speaking as a man when he made those claims. It seems you can only tell Joseph Smith was speaking as a man when it later becomes untenable to portray what he said as Prophetic. For instance, ask members to give some examples of things Mr Nelson has said that they consider are him mistakenly speaking as a prophet but in reality what he said was simply him speaking as a man.

How do they relegate "the visions of the past being opened to my [Joseph Smith's] understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty" as speaking as a man, just his own opinions?

It seems to me that it would take a large measure of wilful self delusion, or a lack of intellectual honesty (perhaps they amount to the same thing).

[_Philo Sofee]

Holy Ghost
How do they relegate "the visions of the past being opened to my [Joseph Smith's] understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty" as speaking as a man, just his own opinions?

Because today's Ph.d wielding apologists actually know better than Joseph Smith did when he spoke as a mere man and when he actually experienced the Spirit as revelation. If there are things he said that today's apologists don't believe, then he is even speaking as a mere man when he believed the Spirit was revealing to the Prophet. It wasn't really as today's apologists know. Beware of the Prophet who contradicts today's Ph.d wielding apologists. The former cannot be accepted by the latter. Ph.dhood is a far far greater mantle than prophethood.

[_Holy Ghost]

Here is a site that is continually adding to reasons why christianity is false. http://www.kyroot.com

Perhaps a list should be started for Mormonism? Discounting what past "prophets" have said should be on the list. Also, the deliberate clouding today of what prophecy and/or inspiration is should be another addition to the list of why Mormonism is false. I bet there are literally thousands of reasons.

I think that would be a marvelous work and a wonder!

[_DoubtingThomas]

Why then cannot the entirety of the Book of Mormon, including its existence, be tossed as not important for "spiritual growth" (whatever that means)?

The geography of the Mormon book is not important for the 21st church.

[_Gadianton]

How do Mormon apologists deal with these statements about the midwest of the United States being part of the Book of Mormon geography?

Simple. They think Joseph Smith was up in the night. Joseph Smith didn't know. This is one of my arguments for the ultimate triumph of the Inspired Fiction Theory that the apologists hate so much: If Joseph Smith could be allowed by God to believe all kinds of false scenarios about the Book of Mormon, then it's that much more reasonable that he could be deceived into believing it was historical. You know the whole line about God speaking to man in his time and place? Perhap's Joseph Smith needed to believe it was historical in order to perform his work, and in particular, he needed to feel personally connected to it. Nowadays, and in the future, perhaps it's "Childhoods End" in that regard, and we're ready to accept the Book of Mormon as a storybook.

by the way, is that Behemoth in your AV? They are the only black metal group I can listen too; well, there is one other. Anyway, they sold out just enough to do quality recordings which goes a long way. Darski is a good guy. I wish I had an hour with him though to try and influence his intellectual pursuits a little.

[_Holy Ghost]

Why then cannot the entirety of the Book of Mormon, including its existence, be tossed as not important for "spiritual growth" (whatever that means)?

The geography of the Mormon book is not important for the 21st church.

I guess the Supreme Mormon, even Russell M. Nelson, didn't get the memo. In closing General Conference last month, Supreme Leader said
"We further witness that Joseph Smith was given the gift and power of God to translate an ancient record: the Book of Mormon—Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Pages of this sacred text include an account of the personal ministry of Jesus Christ among people in the Western Hemisphere soon after His Resurrection."

[_Holy Ghost]

How do Mormon apologists deal with these statements about the midwest of the United States being part of the Book of Mormon geography?

Simple. They think Joseph Smith was up in the night. Joseph Smith didn't know. This is one of my arguments for the ultimate triumph of the Inspired Fiction Theory that the apologists hate so much: If Joseph Smith could be allowed by God to believe all kinds of false scenarios about the Book of Mormon, then it's that much more reasonable that he could be deceived into believing it was historical. You know the whole line about God speaking to man in his time and place? Perhap's Joseph Smith needed to believe it was historical in order to perform his work, and in particular, he needed to feel personally connected to it. Nowadays, and in the future, perhaps it's "Childhoods End" in that regard, and we're ready to accept the Book of Mormon as a storybook.

by the way, is that Behemoth in your AV? They are the only black metal group I can listen too; well, there is one other. Anyway, they sold out just enough to do quality recordings which goes a long way. Darski is a good guy. I wish I had an hour with him though to try and influence his intellectual pursuits a little.

It would be refreshing if the Mormon Church would acknowledge what is by now painfully obvious, that there were no Nephites, Lamanites, etc.

My avatar is of a Swedish rock band called Ghost (sometimes, Ghost B.C.).

[_Philo Sofee]

Gadianton
Simple. They think Joseph Smith was up in the night. Joseph Smith didn't know. This is one of my arguments for the ultimate triumph of the Inspired Fiction Theory that the apologists hate so much: If Joseph Smith could be allowed by God to believe all kinds of false scenarios about the Book of Mormon, then it's that much more reasonable that he could be deceived into believing it was historical. You know the whole line about God speaking to man in his time and place? Perhap's Joseph Smith needed to believe it was historical in order to perform his work, and in particular, he needed to feel personally connected to it. Nowadays, and in the future, perhaps it's "Childhoods End" in that regard, and we're ready to accept the Book of Mormon as a storybook.

Heh.....so many unknowns even by those who have special access to "knowledge" from a dude in the universe who is the ultimate intellect... you make some excellent points Gad. The church has tried to align Joseph Smith's misses with as much modern theory and knowledge as they can get away with, but in the process demonstrate that Smith may actually not have had any "hits" with much of anything! A remarkable position to attempt to defend which has already been defeated, but that part sails over their heads on a daily basis as they fast and pray for miracles which don't exist, so they have to invent them to justify their beliefs.....