Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:03 pm
Joseph Smith was a well known treasure digger from a family that itself was well known for being superstitious and constantly looking for a get rich quick scheme.
He was a treasure digger in his youth. I’m supposing that you’ve read Bushman’s book.
We know that nobody ever really saw the gold plates.
There are witness that say/testify otherwise. I’m supposing that you’ve read source materials in a balanced fashion?
We know that the gold plates were not used in the "translation" of the Book of Mormon.
The plates served their purpose. Mainly, in my opinion, as a/the reference source and artifact which contained the ‘code’ used in running the ‘program’ of translation.
We know that the Book of Mormon bears striking resemblance to other contemporary books, especially one that Joseph Smith's chief scribe, Oliver Cowdery, was quite familiar with.
I would expect this. The book came forth in a certain day and age. Why would we expect the language and syntax to NOT conform with that which Joseph and OTHERS were familiar?
We know Joseph Smith plagiarized much of his "translation" of the Bible.
He did, more often than not, use existing sources as ‘templates’ as he added additional ‘flesh’ to to the truth that was already in place. No reason to reinvent the wheel.
We know that Joseph Smith was blatantly wrong in his "translation" of the Book of Abraham.
There are components that are in question, yes. There are also doctrinal truths in the mix. The Book of Abraham has a publication history behind it that lends itself to questions as to the provenance of every minute bit of the final form. If I’m not mistaken, the Book of Abraham was voted on as scripture after the Saints came out west. That, in and of itself...the vote in conference...isn’t reason to accept every jot and tittle of the Book of Abraham as being God given. I mean, think about it, the serialization format taken for publication in Nauvoo and the historical underpinnings of that ‘project’. I could be mistaken, but I’m not aware of any direct evidence that shows that Joseph Smith saw the whole Book of Abraham project as being in the same class as the Book of Mormon publication.
We know that Joseph Smith was fooled by the Kinderhook plates hoax.
He never took the time to actually translate the plates. Yes, he did see similarities between some of the characters and other characters that he had come across in his KEP studies, but nothing conclusive. Go back and read what Don Bradley has to say in regards to this topic, if you haven’t already done so.
We know that Joseph Smith never told anyone about the so-called "first vision" until over a decade after it happened, and after the church had been formed, and then changed his story about it several times before he died.
The key components remained the same. It sounds as though you haven’t really put any real research into this particular issue. You apparently haven’t put yourself in Joseph Smith’s place? C’mon, he was a BOY at the time of his epiphany. You’ve heard of developmental stages, right?
We know that he used his position of power to rape and sexually assault many women and girls, and used that power and influence to trick many women and girls into "marrying" him, regardless of their age or current marital status.
As I said the physics guy, you can’t shrink wrap the whole polygamy thing into a short sentence or two. Well, you can, but you don’t begin to scratch the surface. And as I’ve said before, you need to keep the filter of history in mind also. A lot of what we know, or think we know, about polygamy came through the lens of Nauvoo polygamy which in large part comes through the historical shenanigans of John C Bennett.
We know that he plagiarized much of the temple endowment from masonry.
Yes, masonry was used as a template as the temple endowment was constructed and put together. No doubt about that. You apparently see that is a problem. I don’t.
We know that he engaged in an illegal banking scheme.
Joseph Smith was not a skilled businessman. No one is going to argue that. He along with many others at the time made some serious miscalculations in regards to what was going on within the banking and monetary system failures present at the time. He was a man of his times and made some of the same errors that other people did back in those days. Joseph Smith himself made it clear that he didn’t act in the name of God or receive inspiration in everything that he did, especially when it came to temporal affairs.
We know that he ordered the destruction of a newspaper printing press after it printed the truth about his secret polygamy.
I’m really questioning whether or not you’ve actually researched these 12 topics? Of course Joseph Smith ordered the destruction of the newspaper in Nauvoo. He saw it as a direct attack on himself and the church. As an outsider, that looks to be a heinous act. On the other hand, if Joseph believed himself to be a prophet...which he did... and the church to be a restoration directed by God himself, then he would see this as being a direct attack on the restoration of the church itself. He couldn’t allow that to happen. Joseph, as you know, wasn’t the first one to destroy a printing press during that time in American history.
Yet we are supposed to believe this is the guy "God" chose to be his so-called "prophet"?
Because of time and space I haven’t begun to scratch the surface of my conclusions and thoughts in regards to your 12 questions, and by the way many others that could be asked. Your questions are short little soundbites that at first glance seem to put a dagger in the heart of Mormonism. But that’s all they are, short little soundbites. Some people will be suckered into thinking that soundbites are actually conclusive or complete history. Especially those of a black and white mindset. On a board such as this there is no way we can really flesh out issues and complications in LDS church history. It’s a personal path that each person has to take on their own, spending many hours, and reading lots of books, and doing lots of thinking and praying.
I cannot be the judge of whether or not you have or haven’t traveled this path. What I do know is that in my experience there are quite a few folks that have looked at issues superficially without really spending the necessary time and effort using many different sources in order to come to a place where they can honestly say that they have made the sacrifice to obtain accurate and at least somewhat complete information. Some say they have, but I’m not sure that they have, at least in my opinion.
MG is beholden to a joke of a religion and no matter how many ‘nuanced’ angles he takes to compartmentalize his thinking he can’t avoid the irrefutable evidences of history and outright fraud and abuse of his followers.
And that’s where you’re coming from, I get that. I think you are mistaken, however.
Facts are real’er than feels. It is what it is.
I actually agree with you on this point. I too am skeptical of making any decisive choice based purely upon feeling and emotion.
Again, I have barely scratched the surface in regards to any one of these 12 issues you’ve presented. But that’s all the time and effort I’m choosing to give it for now. I would encourage you to go and look, study, and read a wide range of sources rather than those that have a simple agenda of discrediting the Prophet Joseph Smith and/or the restoration narrative.
I know it’s hard for you to wrap your mind around, but there are actually a lot of folks out there that are fairly well read and have still chosen, with a sense of integrity, to hold on to their beliefs and membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
But it’s true.
Whether or not it’s a “joke of a religion”, time will tell, huh?
Regards,
MG
