Three Powerful Books

[Guest]

You’re a nut job. And a fake.

Why MG, how dare you speak to your brother from the pre-existence this way! The two of you stood together to push out Lucifer and his minions in that great battle, did you not?

That is a very narrowly focused snapshot of the narrative we have been told in regards to the war in heaven. Within this narrative both Doc and I would have supported the plan of the Father.

Remember how we discussed that the Mormon "big answers" are really pretty ordinary?

Not sure that I was on the same page as you. As a matter of fact, I think that Mormon answers to big questions...here’s one...can man become more like God? The Mormon answer is yes. That’s a big answer. Way out of the ordinary compared to small answers that are out there. Or no answer at all if you look at what atheists such as yourself have to say about it.

I never agreed with your initial premise.

I offered the example of finding oneself wandering Walmart with temporary amnesia.

OK. So you have amnesia.

If my brother here on earth were to end up in Walmart in such a state...

Alright, so you both have amnesia.

...and refused to believe that he had a family waiting for him to come back who lived three miles away...

Who is going to tell him that? Not you. You have amnesia. Someone that knows that you both have amnesia would have to come to your rescue.

I wouldn't call him a "nut job and a fake"...

Of course not. You’re in the same boat. You’re as lost as he is.

...I'd be very concerned about him.

Unlikely, unless you’ve both determined together that you have amnesia and are lost. You, along with him, would have to search for someone you could trust to help. Hopefully you would be concerned about each other.

It wouldn't really matter what choice of words he had for me. My patience would be bolstered by my firm belief that he really did have a family and that Walmart wasn't all there is.

That would be guesswork on your part. For all you know, he may offer to help you if you’re acting confused. You both may find yourselves working together looking for answers. That is, if you even come to the realization that you are lost and stranded at Wal Mart rather than simply being there to get some bananas. There’s a good chance you both could just wander around Wal Mart until closing time and have to ask for help. You may both have to get some help from law enforcement folks or some authority.

Now, should I have doubts about my beliefs, should I think that he might really be right and that Walmart was all there is, and that his family was wishful thinking on my part, and if he and others were to offer compelling arguments that I couldn't deal with that such was the case, then I might start to lose it, and lash out like you did here.

You’re both lost and needing help. Hopefully you can work together on a solution to your dilemma.

It makes me wonder, how much do you really believe in this line about the pre-existence?

I think that whatever it is/was we have very little knowledge and/or recollection of it.

It might be helpful, however, to try and ascertain whether an authority might be able to help.

I think if the trusted authority offered to help and that help was rejected, that would be kind of dumb. I might find myself thinking this other guy was a nut job or even faking amnesia for personal gain or whatever.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

fEeLiNgS iS eViDeNcE! mY FeElInGs aRe rEaL! I hAvE sPeCiaL kNowLedGe!

- Doc

Share?

Check your Caps Lock key first. It may be malfunctioning. Get it fixed.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

It might be helpful, however, to try and ascertain whether an authority might be able to help.

This seems to be key to mental's process. He needs an authority to tell him what to do.

[_mentalgymnast]

It might be helpful, however, to try and ascertain whether an authority might be able to help.

This seems to be key to mental's procees. He needs an authority to tell him what to do.

Trusted authority. But even then one is left to choose.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

Trusted authority. But even then one is left to choose.

Regards,
MG

Interesting. We've established that the historical facts around Joseph Smith don't lend themselves to trust on their own. Instead, you seem to look past them to your faith in God for reasons to believe the Church is trustworthy. Your American social conservatism based on "God, guns, and gays" also seems to play a major part in your belief the Church is trustworthy since it allies with your view of what is moral. Though, which came first?, is another question.

And all of this ultimately comes down to your belief your spiritual experience are caused by supernatural beings who favor Mormonism, and Mormonism most closely represents their will and best interests of humankind.

It's quite a logical Mobius strip. This isn't gymnastics, it's contortion. Gymnastics implies effort. Contortion seems more accurate as it would take effort to follow the knots around and try to unwind it, which seems painful and too much work. Best to let the whole thing stand as is. Old dog, new tricks, right?

[Guest]

Trusted authority. But even then one is left to choose.

Regards,
MG

Interesting. We've established that the historical facts around Joseph Smith don't lend themselves to trust on their own. Instead, you seem to look past them to your faith in God for reasons to believe the Church is trustworthy.

Joseph was subject to the foibles of sin. As we all are. Those foibles, whatever they might be are his. They are between him and God. One might assume, Joseph knowing the pattern of repentance, that he repented of his sins. One would think/hope that we, knowing the pattern of repentance, also follow that path throughout our own lives.

How are we doing on that front?

Do we hold ourselves as accountable for sin as we do others? We KNOW our sins. We don’t know, as a matter of fact, what others have had to deal with and to what degree their transgressions are considered to be ‘sin’ in the eyes of God.

I am wary of being the judge and jury in regards to the life and doings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. What I am able to do, however, is judge whether or not that which has come forth as a result of his works ‘tastes good’. Do those fruits appear as though they may very well have come from a loving God?

The CoJCoLDS seems to fit that bill, to me.

YMMV.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

There’s your evidence, honor.

The church.

And we could go round and round on that. My take on it as far as this discussion goes, knowing the pros and cons of arguments in favor or disfavor of the church being what it says it is, is take it or leave it.

Which you have.

But don’t continue to beat the whole thing to death. Move on.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Trusted authority. But even then one is left to choose.

Regards,
MG

And all of this ultimately comes down to your belief your spiritual experience are caused by supernatural beings who favor Mormonism, and Mormonism most closely represents their will and best interests of humankind.

I think I’ve made it rather clear that we need to be really careful about basing our beliefs wholly on spiritual experiences for reasons I’ve already expressed. I think we are in agreement on that count.

Separate from that, however, I would expect that if the gospel of Christ is mirroring the will of God, we might expect that this gospel has the best interests of mankind in view.

All comes down to whether or not the gospel is true. It is or it isn’t. Take it or leave it.

Regards,
MG

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[quote=Lemmie post_id=1235434 time=1597803778 user_id=18808]
[quote=mentalgymnast post_id=1235423 time=1597799872 user_id=17154]

It might be helpful, however, to try and ascertain whether an authority might be able to help.
[/quote]
This seems to be key to mental's procees. He needs an authority to tell him what to do.
[/quote]

For sure. A multitude of studies have shown authoritarian followers get their beliefs and opinions from the authorities in their lives - hardly at all by making up their own minds. They're imprinted upon, rather than using reason to come to a conclusion. Religion provides a good example of this: authoritarians tend to believe strongly in whatever religion they were raised, the result of having had their religion strongly emphasized to them while they were growing up. At some point they usually have doubts about what they've been taught, but they typically go to their parents, or religious leaders, or scriptures, or friends who profess strong belief. They're mainly seeking reassurance, and not surprisingly, they keep their beliefs.

Someone like mEnTaL GyMnAsT will claim they studied this or that to x-y-z degree but it's BS. The only 'deep dive' they do is in the pond of their own worldview. Sure they'll cursorily look at something some other faith professes, but it's usually through the lens of their own faith as reported to them through discussion and literature produced by the leaders in their own faith.

Even when someone like DCP claims he read *insert super nuanced and lengthy religious treatise by a relatively obscure faithful type* when he was 4-years-old, it becomes plainly obvious they spend the vast majority of their intellectual energy mired within the faith tradition of their authoritarian imprinters. And now that Google is available, someone like DCP likes to give the veneer of being well-read, but it's again plainly obvious he googles and plagiarizes others' works solely to create an apologetic piece that reaffirms his authoritarian worldview.

- Doc

[_Themis]

I think I’ve made it rather clear that we need to be really careful about basing our beliefs wholly on spiritual experiences for reasons I’ve already expressed. I think we are in agreement on that count.

Yet while admitting to huckelberry that interpretations of spiritual experiences are flawed since so many get different ideas from them, you have based your beliefs solely on what the church teaches and your flawed understanding of the spiritual experience.