Smith's Translations at MD&D brouhaha

[_moksha]

Physics Guy, a refinement to PacMan's idea could be that the Early Modern English translators helped pass on to Joseph knowledge of Robert Ritner's books on Ancient Egyptian. Armed with that information, then Joseph surely knew and further proof or reasoning is unneeded. Not sure if PacMan is open to this revision, but he is welcome to it. Not mentioning Coptic may have something to do with it being regarded as sacred and therefore secret. All covered.

[_Physics Guy]

What a Copt-out.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

YB: Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?

Pacman: I do bite my thumb, sir.

YB: Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?

Pacman: Do you quarrel, sir?

YB: Quarrel, sir? No, sir.

Pacman: If you do, sir, I am for you: I serve as good a man as you.

YB: No better.

Pacman: Well, sir. Yes, better, sir.

YB: You lie.

Pacman: Joseph Smith knew Egyptian or not! It mattereth little! Draw, if you be an apostate! Draw!

- Doc

[_Kishkumen]

Thanks Moksha. I just read the thread.

I was surprised that tribe admitted he was now out of the church. If I recall correctly, ttribe used to be a Mopologist many years ago.

Also, reading the thread gave me the distinct impression that Bob Crockett is no longer a believer. Does anyone know if Bob has left the church?

Bob, care to comment?

Yes, ttribe is out. Good man, ttribe. Always has been, always will be.

YB is still believing LDS. He has NOT, to my knowledge left the LDS Church. His attendance has been as impacted by COVID-19 as that of other LDS people.

[_Symmachus]

I haven't got to PacMan yet in that thread, but I noticed Robert F. Smith's claim regarding a character on this document.

Yes, the character for “book” in the phrase "Book of Mormon" is written nearly identical to a known early Demotic Egyptian form of mdЗt “book.”

He references a page in Wolja Erichsen's Auswahl frühdemotischer Texte (3: 108b). I envy him that he has this set of books as it is quite unobtainable (Demotic stuff in general is pretty hard to come by). I therefore can't check it, particularly as my library access is shut off due to you know what. But I can check the Chicago Demotic Dictionary (the relevant volume is accessible here, page 299, beginning under the entry md(3y)(.t)). A quick glance at that only deepens my initial skepticism. It is not a single character, as Robert Smith implies, and the characters in the right column do not appear to be "nearly identical" to the character in the Cowdery document; notably, it lacks the initial character for "m" in Demotic (the Demotic "m" looks like a 3, different from the transliteration for the ayin; it ultimately goes back to the hieroglyph for "m" which was represented by an owl). It is the character to the far left that is in question (Demotic is read R to L, so the last in the character group), so judge for yourself whether you think Robert F. Smith is accurate in calling the Cowdery character "nearly identical" to early Demotic. I do happen to have Erichsen's Demotisches Glossar, and on page 194 of that volume you can almost make out something like what Robert F. Smith is seeing, although again you will note that it misses the initial "m"). Unfortunately, the earlier forms (on the right hand side of the page) look much less like the Cowdery character whereas the Roman period example that Erichsen provides look closer, which is contrary to his claim. I hope Robert F. Smith can post a picture of what he sees in Erichsen's Auswahl.

Also, the rest of the text supposedly containing this apologetic bullseye also contains some gibberish, "in Zemim ezmon E. Zer Oms. ifs veris exzer ens. vonis vinesis" and "ifs E. Zamtri," which are supposedly Hebrew but absolutely are nothing of the sort. And in any case, the thrust of the argument that Robert F. Smith's side is making is that Olivery Cowdery and others are responsible for all the gibberish attributed to Joseph Smith in the "Letter to the Green Mountain Boys."

So, Cowdery speaks gibberish, but in this case he gets this one hit with Demotic?

[_Kishkumen]

I haven't got to PacMan yet in that thread, but I noticed Robert F. Smith's claim regarding a character on this document.

Yes, the character for “book” in the phrase "Book of Mormon" is written nearly identical to a known early Demotic Egyptian form of mdЗt “book.”

He references a page in Wolja Erichsen's Auswahl frühdemotischer Texte (3: 108b). I envy him that he has this set of books as it is quite unobtainable (Demotic stuff in general is pretty hard to come by). I therefore can't check it, particularly as my library access is shut off due to you know what. But I can check the Chicago Demotic Dictionary (the relevant volume is accessible here, page 299, beginning under the entry md(3y)(.t)). A quick glance at that only deepens my initial skepticism. It is not a single character, as Robert Smith implies, and the characters in the right column do not appear to be "nearly identical" to the character in the Cowdery document; notably, it lacks the initial character for "m" in Demotic (the Demotic "m" looks like a 3, different from the transliteration for the ayin; it ultimately goes back to the hieroglyph for "m" which was represented by an owl). It is the character to the far left that is in question (Demotic is read R to L, so the last in the character group), so judge for yourself whether you think Robert F. Smith is accurate in calling the Cowdery character "nearly identical" to early Demotic. I do happen to have Erichsen's Demotisches Glossar, and on page 194 of that volume you can almost make out something like what Robert F. Smith is seeing, although again you will note that it misses the initial "m"). Unfortunately, the earlier forms (on the right hand side of the page) look much less like the Cowdery character whereas the Roman period example that Erichsen provides look closer, which is contrary to his claim. I hope Robert F. Smith can post a picture of what he sees in Erichsen's Auswahl.

Also, the rest of the text supposedly containing this apologetic bullseye also contains some gibberish, "in Zemim ezmon E. Zer Oms. ifs veris exzer ens. vonis vinesis" and "ifs E. Zamtri," which are supposedly Hebrew but absolutely are nothing of the sort. And in any case, the thrust of the argument that Robert F. Smith's side is making is that Olivery Cowdery and others are responsible for all the gibberish attributed to Joseph Smith in the "Letter to the Green Mountain Boys."

So, Cowdery speaks gibberish, but in this case he gets this one hit with Demotic?

I am glad someone has the brains and patience to deal with this stuff. At this point, with so many LDS apologetic failures, I don't even bother to read the claims anymore. Your criticisms of their claims I will read.

[_The Stig]

Thanks Moksha. I just read the thread.

I was surprised that tribe admitted he was now out of the church. If I recall correctly, ttribe used to be a Mopologist many years ago.

Also, reading the thread gave me the distinct impression that Bob Crockett is no longer a believer. Does anyone know if Bob has left the church?

Bob, care to comment?

I admitted I was out on this board a while back (I am "ttribe). I've done it a few times over there during the past year, or so, as well.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1210805

[_Yahoo Bot]

Thanks Moksha. I just read the thread.

I was surprised that tribe admitted he was now out of the church. If I recall correctly, ttribe used to be a Mopologist many years ago.

Also, reading the thread gave me the distinct impression that Bob Crockett is no longer a believer. Does anyone know if Bob has left the church?

Bob, care to comment?

I have never said on this board or that board whether or not I am a believer. At least I don't remember, but dementia is catching up.

[_Shulem]

I have never said on this board or that board whether or not I am a believer.

That is wonderful to hear. Sounds like you're biding your time and doing your own thing.

Good luck to you.

[_Philo Sofee]

Thanks Moksha. I just read the thread.

I was surprised that tribe admitted he was now out of the church. If I recall correctly, ttribe used to be a Mopologist many years ago.

Also, reading the thread gave me the distinct impression that Bob Crockett is no longer a believer. Does anyone know if Bob has left the church?

Bob, care to comment?

I admitted I was out on this board a while back (I am "ttribe). I've done it a few times over there during the past year, or so, as well.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1210805

Welcome man! Hey, do we know each other from old apologists days? email me if so we can talk more in private.......until Lou Midgley catches up to us.....