Biden vs. Trump

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
Post Reply
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Gunnar »

ajax18 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:48 am
What, exactly, is even on the current Republican Party platform?
Capitalism and a booming economy that lifts all boats in the water, self reliance, lower taxes, less welfare spending, a sovereign nation that can democratically choose which immigrants come into the country and which do not, the appointment of conservative justices, pushing back the tide of communism led by people like Bernie Sanders, someone tough on crime who supports law enforcement and unwilling to bow the knee to terrorist groups like Antifa and Black Lives Matter, someone who won't impose policies that result in 45% unemployment over the next 3 years due to a virus that 99.96% of people suffer no noticeable effect from. How many foreclosures, repossessed vehicles? How ridiculously high will taxes have to go to pay for this shut down and how much will that hurt the economy down the road. This shut down was a huge mistake.
1. I support free enterprise and honest entrepreneurship and the innovation and prosperity that it makes possible, and so do Bernie Sanders and other progressives. We do not support completely unbridled, irresponsible, immoral and unregulated laisses faire, buyer-beware capitalism, like you and other hard right conservative apparently do. Nor do we support Communism or any other kind of authoritarian tyranny -- especially not the kind that Trump is obviously striving for!

2. I support environmental and health regulations that protect our safety, health and quality of life. They save both individuals and society far more money in the long run than they cost, and can even provide entrepreneurial and employment opportunities, and incentives for individuals and businesses to research and develop ever better and more cost effective means of avoiding pollution, while cleaning up and recycling waste products. This is ultimately more truly conservative than exploiting, using up and wasting the earth's resources without regard to potentially adverse economic, health, ecological and environmental consequences.

3. I support Universal healthcare paid for by our taxes, because numerous studies (including even the conservative funded Koch Brothers Study) have shown that they not only provide better overall standards of health, but can cost both society and individuals half as much or less than private health insurance policies paid for with their premiums and copays. What good does it do to save money on taxes if the cost of insurance premiums and copays is greater that the potential tax savings, and one is still at risk of bankruptcy in case of any, even moderately serious medical emergency?

4. Believe it or not, Biden is much more strongly in favor of law and order than Trump is. Trump is in favor of law enforcement only as long as it doesn't inconvenience him. His strong defense of law enforcement, while at the same time boasting how he was openly flaunting the Hatch act by merely holding his RNC rally on the Whitehouse lawn, largely at taxpayer expense, was the very height of hypocrisy. Biden denounced in the strongest terms violence and vandalism by both liberal, BLM protesters and pro-Trump agitators and militia types, while Trump refuses to denounce such actions committed by his right wing supporters. Besides that Trump hardly makes any secret about offering pardons to any willing to break laws on his behalf, or even to wealthy, convicted felons who are potential donors. Law and order President my arse! (please excuse the profanity. some things are so outrageous that they move even me to profanity!).

5. As for replacing all liberal justices with conservative ones, this cannot be a good idea, because, as I have often maintained, neither conservatives nor liberals know all the answers, or have a monopoly on either truth or error. We need to have a reasonable balance of both, to listen open-mindedly to each others' ideas, and keep in check harmful extremes from both the liberal and conservative sides. We especially don't need radical partisan hacks from either side who refuse to seriously consider anything but their own party's selfish interests.

6. I support free or low cost tuition to public institutions of education up to and through college, because government investments in education and scientific research are virtually the only investments government can make that consistently show a much higher return to the national treasury than the cost of the investment. Yet appropriations for education and research are almost always among the first things they think to cut when deciding to save money. That's insane! The government coffers certainly don't benefit very much if people give up on finishing their education because they feel they can no longer afford it, or wind up so heavily saddled with educational debt after graduating that they face imminent default and/or bankruptcy, or suicidal desperation.

7. by the way, you can't honestly claim you are in favor of less welfare spending when you also support massive tax cuts, 80% of which go to the richest 1% of the population, while at the same time opposing raising the minimum wage of the poorest of us to more than a bare or even less than sufficient level. That really amounts to a massive, free welfare benefit to the very people who don't need such a benefit, while increasing the misery of those who are most desperately in need of it.
The stakes are very high. If I lived in a blue state I probably still wouldn't be allowed to go back to work. Biden has already said that if he had his way we'd be shut down right now. And for many on this board that shut down should last for the next 3 to 4 years. I don't want to live in a country where the law looks more favorably upon looting than keeping your business open and working. And that is exactly what the Democrat party wants. They need to be stopped.
1.Biden has not said that "if he had his way we'd be shut down right now." He said he would consider it if and only if there was a new wave of the pandemic, and things did not continue to improve. Besides that, most other nations that followed the advice of pandemic experts to temporarily shut down to control it are doing much better than we are, and are well on the way towards restoring normalcy. The one European nation that refused to do that, Sweden, is the only nation in Europe that is doing proportionally even worse than we are in combating the pandemic.

2. The blue states (even New York and New Jersey) are now doing well in recovering from the pandemic (especially proportionally), while the worst hot spots of resurgence are in red states. California still has the most number of confirmed cases, but not proportionally, and 28 of its 58 counties are consistently falling in daily new cases, while only 16 currently show an increase. Both hospital and ICU patients are declining in number, and positivity rate has declined to 4.4%. Still, no one is saying we are out of the woods yet.
I want an America where my 16 year old niece can drive to an activity without fear she'll be surrounded by BLM blocking the road ready to tear her from her car and beat her. I don't want a situation like Wisconsin where the kids have to stay locked in the basement while Dad has to stand watch with a hunting rifle in the living room not knowing when BLM might bust through the door. You don't get that by electing people that suspend bail and free these terrorists immediately to return to the streets and work their destruction. If the hard left has their way, we won't have police and we won't have a gun to defend ourselves either. You basically will be forbidden to stop and bring to justice any criminal who happens to be black.
Nonsense! 93% of the BLM protests are peaceful. Even in Wisconsin there is more sympathy for that movement than hostility. Biden's approval rating has improved recently while Trump's has declined -- even in Wisconsin. In the communities where pro-Trump agitators are sent, the level of violence and mayhem only gets worse, not better, and this is obviously by design on Trump's part, because he still thinks more mayhem will help his reelection chances. And one of Trump's biggest and most consistent lies is that Biden favors defunding the police. Biden has, on the contrary, advocated increased funding for police.
It appears that practically the only firm plank on that platform is: "Reelect Trump!"
Do you think voting for Biden is going to help move forward a conservative agenda? This is why I can't understand how people like John Kasich can even call themselves Republicans. Obviously neither he nor Mitt Romney will ever be able to run for any position of siginficance as Republicans again. Real conservatives that disagree with Trump but are committed to conservative principles and furthering the conservative agenda are people like Ted Cruz.
No. I definitely do not think voting for Biden is going to help move forward a more conservative agenda! That would be a reason to vote against him, not for him. If there is any fault I find with Biden, it is that he is not progressive enough!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Some Schmo »

ajax18 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:32 pm
I hear ya. I generally think of myself as an independent, but I agree with both right and left ideals, depending on the issue.
Really? I'd be very interested to hear what politically conservative ideal you agree with? I'd be even more interested in knowing what you've ever done to promote or even advocate for this ideal
You are lying again. You aren't interested in this at all. If you were, you'd have paid attention the last time you asked me.
ajax18 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:32 pm
Trump and his ilk aren't even in that conversation. They are on another planet, pretending that destroying the country is the way to save it. They've sold their souls to the devil.
So says the man who doesn't even believe the devil or eternal souls exist.
You aren't even smart enough to identify when someone is using a metaphor.
ajax18 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:32 pm
You can't reason with unreasonable people, so I don't try. I just point my finger and say, you guys suck. Lying isn't the same as arguing, but it's all they've got.
How has that been working out for you?
Fantastic. Unlike you, telling the truth makes me feel good. It's cleansing. You should try it some time.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
_Emeritus
Posts: 15602
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:59 pm

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Some Schmo »

Gunnar, asking ajax about the conservative agenda is like asking a group of blue haired old ladies at a quilting bee what they think of the NHL playoffs. The only answer you're likely to get is one made up, because they have no real idea what it's about. I mean, if someone's dumb enough to think Trump's a conservative, they're dumb enough to think hockey is played with tennis rackets.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Here's Ajax pro-business pro-American guy:

[–]Thisam

Everybody works for somebody; we all know who Donald works for now. There is no benefit for him in this behavior because it doesn’t help his base or his donors, so he must owe Putin big time for something else. He’s been funded by Russian money since 1984:

Trump was over a billion in debt and the Russians bailed him out.

► Trump was first compromised by the Russians in the 80s. In 1984, the Russian Mafia began to use Trump real estate to launder money. In 1987, the Soviet ambassador to the United Nations, Yuri Dubinin, arranged for Trump and his then-wife, Ivana, to enjoy an all-expense-paid trip to Moscow to consider possible business prospects. Only seven weeks after his trip, Trump ran full-page ads in the Boston Globe, the NYT and Washington Post calling for, in effect, the dismantling of the postwar Western foreign policy alliance. The whole Trump/Russian connection started out as laundering money for the Russian mob through Trump's real estate, but evolved into something far bigger.

► In 1984, David Bogatin — a convicted Russian mobster and close ally of Semion Mogilevich, a major Russian mob boss — met with Trump in Trump Tower right after it opened. Bogatin bought five condos from Trump at that meeting. Those condos were later seized by the government, which claimed they were used to launder money for the Russian mob. (NY Times, Apr 30, 1992)

► Felix Sater is a Russian-born former mobster, and former managing director of NY real estate conglomerate Bayrock Group LLC located on the 24th floor of Trump Tower. He is a convict who became a govt cooperator for the FBI and other agencies. He grew up with Michael Cohen--Trump's former "fixer" attorney. Cohen's family owned El Caribe, which was a mob hangout for the Russian Mafia in Brooklyn. Cohen had ties to Ukrainian oligarchs through his in-laws and his brother's in-laws. Felix Sater's father had ties to the Russian mob. This goes back more than 30 years.

► Trump was $4 billion in debt after his Atlantic City casinos went bankrupt. No U.S. bank would touch him. Then foreign money began flowing in through Bayrock (mentioned above). Bayrock was run by two investors: Tevfik Arif, a Kazakhstan-born former Soviet official who drew on bottomless sources of money from the former Soviet republic; and Felix Sater, a Russian-born businessman who had pleaded guilty in the 1990s to a huge stock-fraud scheme involving the Russian mafia. Bayrock partnered with Trump in 2005 and poured money into the Trump organization under the legal guise of licensing his name and property management.

► In July 2008, the height of the housing bust, Trump sold a mansion in Palm Beach for $95 million to Dmitry Rybolovlev, a Russian oligarch. Trump had purchased it four years earlier for $41.35 million. The sale price was nearly $54 million more than Trump had paid for the property. Again, this was the height of the recession when all other property had plummeted in value.

► Semion Mogilevich was the brains behind the Russian Mafia. Mogilevich operatives have been using Trump real estate for decades to launder money. That means Russian Mafia operatives have been part of his fortune for years. Many of them owned condos in Trump Towers and other properties. They were running operations out of Trump's crown jewel.

► From Craig Unger's AMA: "Early on, a source told me that all this was tied to Semion Mogilevich, the powerful Russian mobster. I had never even heard of him, but I immediately went to a database that listed the owners of all properties in NY state and looked up all the Trump properties. Every time I found a Russian sounding name, I would Google, and add Mogilevich. When you do investigative reporting, you anticipate drilling a number of dry holes, but almost everyone I googled turned out to be a Russian mobster. Again and again. If you know New York you don't expect Trump Tower to be a high crime neighborhood, but there were far too many Russian mobsters in Trump properties for it to be a coincidence."

► So many Russians bought Trump apartments at his developments in Florida that the area became known as Little Moscow. The developers of two of his hotels were Russians with significant links to the Russian mob. The late leader of that mob in the United States, Vyacheslav Kirillovich Ivankov, was living at Trump Tower

► According to a Bloomberg investigation (3/16/2017) into Trump World Tower, “a third of units sold on floors 76 through 83 by 2004 involved people or limited liability companies connected to Russia and neighboring states.”

► In 2013, Federal agents busted an “ultraexclusive, high-stakes, illegal poker ring” run by Russian gangsters out of Trump Tower. They operated card games, illegal gambling websites, and a global sports book and laundered more than $100 million. A condo directly below one owned by Trump reportedly served as HQ for a “sophisticated money-laundering scheme” connected to Semion Mogilevich.

► The Russia Mafia is part and parcel of Russian intelligence. Russia is a mafia state. that is not a metaphor. Putin is head of the Mafia. So the fact that they have been operating out of the home of the president of the United States is deeply disturbing.

► Rudy Giuliani famously prosecuted the Italian mob while he was a federal prosecutor, yet the Russian mob was allowed to thrive. Now he's deeply entwined in the business of Trump and Russian oligarchs. Giuiani appointed Semyon Kislin to the NYC Economic Development Council in 1990, and the FBI described Kislin as having ties tot he Russian mob. Of course, it made good political sense for Giuliani to get headlines for smashing the Italian mob.

► A lot of Republicans in Washington are implicated. Boatloads of Russian money went to the GOP--often in legal ways. The NRA got as much as $70M from Russia, then funneled it to the GOP. The Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee lead by McConnel got millions from Leonard Blavatnik. In the 90s, the Russians began sending money to top GOP leaders, like Speaker of the House Tom Delay. Unger's book alleges that most of the GOP leadership has been compromised by RU money.

► At the Cityscape USA’s Bridging US and the Emerging Real Estate Markets Conference held in Manhattan, on September 9, 10, and 11, 2008, Trump Jr. was frank about the tide of Russian money supporting the family business, saying "...And in terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets."

► Eric Trump told golf reporter James Dodson in 2014 that the Trump Organization was able to expand during the financial crisis because “We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.”

► Russian oligarchs co-signed Trump’s Deutsche bank loans.

Trump now gleefully takes cues from Putin:

► At the end of 2018, Putin and his allies started making a strong push for a resolution that would justify their country’s 1979 invasion of Afghanistan and reverse an 1989 vote backed by Mikhail Gorbachev that condemned it. The Putinists’ goal was to pass the resolution by Feb. There is no one on this side of the Atlantic who thinks the USSR was justified in invading Afghanistan. And out of nowhere, on January 2nd, Trump came out strongly supporting Russia's 1979 invasion of Afghanistan.

► Trump went against American intelligence on North Korean missiles. He told the FBI he didn't believe their intelligence because Putin told him otherwise. "I don't care, I believe Putin"

► Trump met in secret with Putin the G20 summit in November 2018, without note takers. 19 days later, he announced a withdrawal from Syria. As a note, Trump conducted FIVE completely private meetings and conferences with Putin, and has gone to great lengths to prevent literally anyone, even people in his administration, from learning what was discussed.

► Trump refused to enforce sanctions legally codified into law - and in some cases reversed standing sanctions on Russian companies.

► He has denounced his own intelligence agencies in a press conference with Putin on election meddling - and publicly endorsed Putin's version of events.

► Trump pulled out of the INF treaty with no explanation, which allows Putin to create long-range hypersonic missiles that threaten Europe with impunity. The US already has all the weaponry that the INF would ban the development of, so this offers us literally nothing, while allowing Russia to develop powerful new weapons to challenge our allies.

► Demanded Russia get invited back into G7

► Pushed the CIA to give American intelligence to the Kremlin.

► Withdrew from the Open Skies treaty

► Received intelligence in 2019 that Russia was paying bounties for dead American soldiers, and hasn't done anything about it by the time of this writing.

► Announced troop withdrawal from Germany (America's missile defense from Russia and forward operating base against Russian aggression)

► And of course, Trump continues to threaten to pull out of NATO, a move so catastrophically stupid, so inconceivably cosmically myopic, I truly can't express the profundity of the idiocy. Suffice to say, pulling out of NATO would be like the only guy in a prison yard with a shotgun just throwing it over the fence for absolutely no reason, suddenly giving the people with crude homemade shivs complete power.
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _ajax18 »

Besides that, most other nations that followed the advice of pandemic experts to temporarily shut down to control it are doing much better than we are, and are well on the way towards restoring normalcy. The one European nation that refused to do that, Sweden, is the only nation in Europe that is doing proportionally even worse than we are in combating the pandemic.
That's not true. Spain is having a resurgence now.
And one of Trump's biggest and most consistent lies is that Biden favors defunding the police. Biden has, on the contrary, advocated increased funding for police.
Biden will do whatever Kamala Harris or Ocasio Cortez tell him to do. If not he'll be disposed of pretty quickly.
No. I definitely do not think voting for Biden is going to help move forward a more conservative agenda! That would be a reason to vote against him, not for him. If there is any fault I find with Biden, it is that he is not progressive enough!
I wasn't asking what your political agenda is Gunnar. I already know your desires very well. I was pointing out that so called Republicans/conservatives who are voting for Biden cannot be conservatives. Republicans who only open their mouths to criticize Trump and never criticize the left cannot truly want to see conservative principles made law when everything they say or do makes that much less likely to happen.
Believe it or not, Biden is much more strongly in favor of law and order than Trump is.
It makes me wonder why the police chose to endorse Donald Trump and not Joe Biden. Oh yeah, because police officers are all a bunch of racists. Democrats better hurry up and restore voting rights for felons or you might be looking at Ivanka Trump/Candice Owens in the white house in 2024.
Last edited by ICCrawler - ICjobs on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _ajax18 »

I mean, if someone's dumb enough to think Trump's a conservative, they're dumb enough to think hockey is played with tennis rackets.
You were wrong about this during the 2016 Republican primary and you're wrong about it still now. Trump was accused of paying lip service to conservative policies similar to what Mitt Romney did in 2012. Whether you like him or not, it's intellectually dishonest of you to say Trump didn't do or try to do what he promised to do. This is evidenced by your hatred of him and the new liberal love affair with Mitt Romney.

Maybe there is something that could happen that would cause me not to vote for Trump. If Schmo or Gunnar were to vote for Trump, I'd seriously consider not voting for him.
Last edited by ICCrawler - ICjobs on Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Brackite
_Emeritus
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:12 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Brackite »

ajax18 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:48 am
Do you think voting for Biden is going to help move forward a conservative agenda? This is why I can't understand how people like John Kasich can even call themselves Republicans. Obviously neither he nor Mitt Romney will ever be able to run for any position of siginficance as Republicans again. Real conservatives that disagree with Trump but are committed to conservative principles and furthering the conservative agenda are people like Ted Cruz.

Trump has already appointed a lot of people to the courts and two people to the Supreme Court. I want Biden to appoint Ginsburg’s replacement for the Supreme Court.

A second term of Trump means that we will get him as an imperial President. He will be like a dictator.
Trump’s abuse of presidential power isn’t unique, but it is worrying in so far as it sets the stage for a true test of our system of checks and balances in November. If voters choose to allow Trump free rein on presidential abuse, we may have a truly imperial president.

...

Instead, Trump’s actions have repeatedly courted his political base. Having launched his political career as a self-styled populist, Trump has always cast politics in terms of us vs. them. More so than any prior president, he has repeatedly used his unilateral powers to pursue policies prized by his base over those that enjoy broad public support. The reason is clear: the most powerful check on past presidents’ unilateral impulses — national public opinion — can do little to constrain a populist president who sees his political survival as depending solely on pandering to his base.

Second, Trump’s use (or abuse) of the presidency’s unilateral powers stand out for the brazenness of his assault on Congress’ power of the purse. Notably, his first broadside over the border wall was crafted primarily to satiate his base. His most recent gambit is more an act of desperation in the face of a significant deficit in the polls with less than three months to go before Election Day.


https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house ... Relief Society-can?amp
Last edited by MSNbot Media on Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:37 pm
Gunnar, asking ajax about the conservative agenda is like asking a group of blue haired old ladies at a quilting bee what they think of the NHL playoffs. The only answer you're likely to get is one made up, because they have no real idea what it's about. I mean, if someone's dumb enough to think Trump's a conservative, they're dumb enough to think hockey is played with tennis rackets.
You know, of course, that I realize, as you do, that Ajax is completely immune to reason and reality that conflicts in the slightest with what he would rather believe. When he answered "Nope!" to the question, "Is there anything Trump could do or fail to do that would make him not vote for Trump?", he effectively admitted that he is bound and determined to believe what he already believes, whether it is true or not. Perhaps someone else seeing these exchanges, whose cognitive abilities have not yet been permanently destroyed by unreasoning, cult-like bias might see Ajax as an object lesson in how not to become.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

The problem with Trumpists is they mix up populism with conservatism. For example, he’s a protectionist, while conservatives have historically been free traders. Or conservatives typically say they’re fiscally, uh, conservative, but deficits and debt have exploded under Trump (rich people got a nice tax break, though). Conservatives like to think they are averse to fanaticism, that they possess a belief in objective truth and are pragmatic. They now embrace lies, deceit, and venality. Perhaps getting the Supreme Court stacked with conservatives is all worth it, though. I dunno.

- Doc
_Gunnar
_Emeritus
Posts: 6315
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:17 am

Re: Biden vs. Trump

Post by _Gunnar »

Brackite wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:53 pm

Trump has already appointed a lot of people to the courts and two people to the Supreme Court. I want Biden to appoint Ginsburg’s replacement for the Supreme Court.
Me too! I dread the thought of one or two more corporate owned, heartless ideologues like Kavanaugh or Gorsuch being added to the Supreme court.
A second term of Trump means that we will get him as an imperial President. He will be like a dictator.
And a Putin puppet! I shudder at the thought!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Post Reply