Wordprint Studies & the Book of Mormon

[Dr Moore]

Gospel Tangents has a video of Brian Hales commenting wordprint studies of the Book of Mormon.
It has been a while since that study was published by Jockers Witten and Criddle
http://solomonspalding.com/Lib/Jock2008.htm

Criddle on Facebook said " One key thing is that we were finally able to “fingerprint” Smith. This was difficult because he had many scribes. Once we had that a reliable word print, we redid the Jockers et al study. The results were nearly the same though some chapters were attributed to Smith."

Dan Vogel and Colby Townsend both knock the Spalding theory.
The video is interesting but I find Bennet needs to not smirk so much. Sounds arrogrant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJQ70CKGZSY
So the whole argument seems to be presented by Hales that Smith was not smart enough to create the Book of Mormon. Dan Vogel does not agree.

Back to the OP, this is a fascinating series by GT. Highly recommend viewing them.

One thing I’m still not clear about is this: how does anyone estimate and benchmark Joseph Smith’s ability as a verbal storyteller in 1829? What’s the control set?

[MG 2.0]

One thing I’m still not clear about is this: how does anyone estimate and benchmark Joseph Smith’s ability as a verbal storyteller in 1829? What’s the control set?

Joseph Smith’s Composition Skills in 1829
Joseph Smith was intelligent, but no acquaintances reported that he had pursued or possessed any remarkable skills in composition or oratory in 1829.
•Joseph Smith wrote that he was “deprived of the benefit of an education. . . I was merely instructed in reading, writing and the ground rules of arithmetic,” which his family corroborated.
•District schools in rural New York in the 1820s did not teach creative writing or composition, in part due to the limited availability and cost of paper and ink.
•Isaac Hale, Emma Hale Smith’s father, recounted in 1834: “I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith Jr. in November, 1825 . . . His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man—not very well educated.”
•John H. Gilbert, who typeset the Book of Mormon in 1830, remembered: “We had a great deal of trouble with it [the Book of Mormon manuscript]. It was not punctuated at all. They [Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery] did not know anything about punctuation.” When asked, “Was he [Joseph Smith] educated?” he responded, “Oh, not at all then.”
•Palmyra acquaintance Pomeroy Tucker recalled that Joseph Smith read “dime novels,” but Tucker also describes Joseph as “uneducated and ignorant” in the 1820s.
•In 1830, the Palmyra Reflector reported that Joseph Smith’s “mental powers appear to be extremely limited, and from the small opportunity he has had at school, he made little or no proficiency.”
•Joseph’s mother, Lucy, noted that he “seemed much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children.”
• Younger brother William Smith, reported that Joseph “was illitterate [illiterate] to some extent is admitted but that he was enterly [entirely] unlettered is a mistake.”

Joseph Smith’s Oratory Skills in 1829
•Lucy Mack Smith’s autobiography reported that in 1823, “Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined.” If these storytelling events were frequent, it is strange that no other family member or acquaintance (friend or foe) recalled them.
•Orsamus Turner, who knew the Smith family in the 1820s, referred to Joseph’s involvement with the “juvenile debating club” and as a Methodist “exhorter.” Apparently unimpressed overall , Turner also described Joseph as “possessed of less than ordinary intellect.”
•Biographer Richard Bushman reports that Joseph Smith “is not known to have preached a sermon before the Church is organized in 1830. He had no reputation as a preacher.”

This might help you get started. Sorry if it’s just a waste of your time. Someone else might learn something new though.

You have an obligation to consider them, right?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

One thing I’m still not clear about is this: how does anyone estimate and benchmark Joseph Smith’s ability as a verbal storyteller in 1829? What’s the control set?

William Davis does a pretty decent job of that, in my opinion, in his book, "Visions in a Seer stone":

In this interdisciplinary work, William L. Davis examines Joseph Smith's 1829 creation of the Book of Mormon, the foundational text of the Latter Day Saint movement. Positioning the text in the history of early American oratorical techniques, sermon culture, educational practices, and the passion for self-improvement, Davis elucidates both the fascinating cultural context for the creation of the Book of Mormon and the central role of oral culture in early nineteenth-century America.

Drawing on performance studies, religious studies, literary culture, and the history of early American education, Davis analyzes Smith’s process of oral composition. How did he produce a history spanning a period of 1,000 years, filled with hundreds of distinct characters and episodes, all cohesively tied together in an overarching narrative? Eyewitnesses claimed that Smith never looked at notes, manuscripts, or books—he simply spoke the words of this American religious epic into existence. Judging the truth of this process is not Davis's interest. Rather, he reveals a kaleidoscope of practices and styles that converged around Smith's creation, with an emphasis on the evangelical preaching styles popularized by the renowned George Whitefield and John Wesley.

https://uncpress.org/book/9781469655666 ... eer-stone/

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Eyewitnesses claimed

-_-

- Doc

[Dr Moore]

One thing I’m still not clear about is this: how does anyone estimate and benchmark Joseph Smith’s ability as a verbal storyteller in 1829? What’s the control set?

William Davis does a pretty decent job of that, in my opinion, in his book, "Visions in a Seer stone":

In this interdisciplinary work, William L. Davis examines Joseph Smith's 1829 creation of the Book of Mormon, the foundational text of the Latter Day Saint movement. Positioning the text in the history of early American oratorical techniques, sermon culture, educational practices, and the passion for self-improvement, Davis elucidates both the fascinating cultural context for the creation of the Book of Mormon and the central role of oral culture in early nineteenth-century America.

Drawing on performance studies, religious studies, literary culture, and the history of early American education, Davis analyzes Smith’s process of oral composition. How did he produce a history spanning a period of 1,000 years, filled with hundreds of distinct characters and episodes, all cohesively tied together in an overarching narrative? Eyewitnesses claimed that Smith never looked at notes, manuscripts, or books—he simply spoke the words of this American religious epic into existence. Judging the truth of this process is not Davis's interest. Rather, he reveals a kaleidoscope of practices and styles that converged around Smith's creation, with an emphasis on the evangelical preaching styles popularized by the renowned George Whitefield and John Wesley.

https://uncpress.org/book/9781469655666 ... eer-stone/

Seems like a must read for anyone with skin in the “Joseph Smith” game.

[MG 2.0]

William Davis does a pretty decent job of that, in my opinion, in his book, "Visions in a Seer stone":

Seems like a must read for anyone with skin in the “Joseph Smith” game.

I’m not going to buy the book. It’s a bit pricey. I did read what was available online though. Davis seems to equate Joseph’s oral performance abilities in 1829 with those in 1843. That may be problematical. Especially when we look at the existing witness testimony of his abilities in 1829. Also, the idea of Joseph doing an extended oral performance…of significant complexity…whilst his head is in a hat, and the result being the longest ‘first performance’ ever by a young newbie, is a stretch.

And then having a poster, who should know better, comparing this to a person who trains to run the mile in under four minutes as an adequate cross comparison…c’mon.

Game, huh? The appearance of God the Father and Jesus Christ…the creator of heaven and earth…in the modern era? Lost truths and authority restored? I realize that at this point of ‘the game’ for you these potentialities are somewhat meaningless except for an interest you may have in the humanistic side of what makes religious leaders tick.

IF this ‘restoration’ is something more than an interesting narrative dealing with the religious impulse of a farm boy living back in the 1800’s, however, it’s more than a game.

I suppose that’s why so much sweat and so many tears have been put into the efforts of both critics and apologists now for two hundred years or so.

I believe that whether you realize it or not you have skin in the Joseph Smith ‘game’ also.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

Seems like a must read for anyone with skin in the “Joseph Smith” game.

I’m not going to buy the book. It’s a bit pricey. I did read what was available online though. Davis seems to equate Joseph’s oral performance abilities in 1829 with those in 1843. That may be problematical. Especially when we look at the existing witness testimony of his abilities in 1829. Also, the idea of Joseph doing an extended oral performance…of significant complexity…whilst his head is in a hat, and the result being the longest ‘first performance’ ever by a young newbie, is a stretch.

And then having a poster, who should know better, comparing this to a person who trains to run the mile in under four minutes as an adequate cross comparison…c’mon.

Game, huh? The appearance of God the Father and Jesus Christ…the creator of heaven and earth…in the modern era? Lost truths and authority restored? I realize that at this point of ‘the game’ for you these potentialities are somewhat meaningless except for an interest you may have in the humanistic side of what makes religious leaders tick.

IF this ‘restoration’ is something more than an interesting narrative dealing with the religious impulse of a farm boy living back in the 1800’s, however, it’s more than a game.

I suppose that’s why so much sweat and so many tears have been put into the efforts of both critics and apologists now for two hundred years or so.

I believe that whether you realize it or not you have skin in the Joseph Smith ‘game’ also.

Regards,
MG

I’m not going to buy the book. It’s a bit pricey.

It's $22.99 for the e-book version and $29.95 for a paperback version. I am sure if you really wanted to read it, we could start a go fund me and help you get a copy. https://uncpress.org/book/9781469655666 ... eer-stone/

Davis seems to equate Joseph’s oral performance abilities in 1829 with those in 1843. That may be problematical. Especially when we look at the existing witness testimony of his abilities in 1829. Also, the idea of Joseph doing an extended oral performance…of significant complexity…whilst his head is in a hat, and the result being the longest ‘first performance’ ever by a young newbie, is a stretch.

Certainly, how could he have known, blah, blah, blah. If one agrees that he did the work over a roughly 90 day period, that is only 6 pages a day. Not that much and certainly not the "stretch" you wish. However, Lucy says in her autobiography that Joseph was describing the native americans for some time prior. He had the plates story for years prior and there was a significant amount of time from when he first supposedly got the plates until he did the rock in the hat magic show. He had plenty of time to formulate his stories.

I suppose that’s why so much sweat and so many tears have been put into the efforts of both critics and apologists now for two hundred years or so.

If the church stopped the missionary work and stopped pressuring family to "rescue" those who left, the sweat level would decrease by a lot.

[MG 2.0]

I’m not going to buy the book. It’s a bit pricey.

It's $22.99 for the e-book version and $29.95 for a paperback version. I am sure if you really wanted to read it, we could start a go fund me and help you get a copy. https://uncpress.org/book/9781469655666 ... eer-stone/

Thanks, but no thanks. This last week I purchased, “Is Atheism Dead?”

https://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Dead-Eri ... 9/ref=nodl_

Hardcover edition. I have other books I’ve recently purchased and are demanding that I read them! I don’t need one more book right now.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

If one agrees that he did the work over a roughly 90 day period, that is only 6 pages a day. Not that much and certainly not the "stretch" you wish. However, Lucy says in her autobiography that Joseph was describing the native americans for some time prior. He had the plates story for years prior and there was a significant amount of time from when he first supposedly got the plates until he did the rock in the hat magic show. He had plenty of time to formulate his stories.

That’s a WAY oversimplification.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’m going to bow out again for a period of time. Other things are on my ‘to do’ list. Thanks for the conversation.

Going out on a run being first. Getting caught up on some reading and other in real life stuff after that.

Adios for now.

Regards,
MG