Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 8510
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:32 pm
Instinct, common sense and reason all play a part.
Is that all a conscience is? What exactly is a conscience to you?

Can you give me an example of something unique to Christ that contributes to conscience?

Don’t forget this question, too:
A country in which everyone shared judeo-christian values could be enormously successful.
What are those values, and what makes them uniquely Christian?
User avatar
ajax18
God
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:12 pm

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by ajax18 »

Is that all a conscience is? What exactly is a conscience to you?

Can you give me an example of something unique to Christ that contributes to conscience?
I think you're being evasive and under the assumption that I'm here for combat. I'm not in the case of this question. I was asking because I was genuinely interested in what a conscience is to someone like Schmo who believes faith is a mental illness and psychological disorder. My concept of a conscience has always been tied to my faith.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
Gunnar
God
Posts: 3163
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by Gunnar »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:21 pm
Flynn, who was subpoenaed last week by the House select committee investigating the January 6 attack, made the comment during a speech to a conservative Christian audience on the ReAwaken America tour in Texas this weekend. "If we are going to have one nation under God, which we must, we have to have one religion," he said. "One nation under God and one religion under God, right? All of us, working together."
Michael Flynn couldn't possibly be more wrong. His claim could hardly be more antithetical to the actual founding principles of our nation and its constitution. The so called "Christian Nationalism" as it is commonly understood by its most ardent proponents is as profoundly Un-American as anything could be, like it or not.

Why America’s Christian foundation is a myth
“The political theology of Christian nationalism, their very identity, is dependent upon a common well of myths and lies,” he says. “Without the historical cover that the lies give, their policy justifications crumble.”

Common myths he points to include American verbiage such as “One nation under God” and “In God We Trust.” The former was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 and the latter was not required on currency until 1956. The original motto the founders suggested was the Latin phrase E pluribus unum, which translates to “Out of many, one.” Other untruths are that the Declaration of Independence references Jesus multiple times, that the founders prayed at the Constitutional Convention, and that our laws were based on the Ten Commandments.
The fact that the two phrases emphasized above were not added until the 1950s is very telling. They were added during fanatical frenzy of McCarthyism, when hard right, paranoid conservatives imagined communist conspiracies behind anyone or anything not adhering to their extremely right wing views. Those two phrases violate the anti-establishment clause of the constitution. It is sad how most Judges were either too cowardly or too religiously prejudiced to point that out.
But Seidel’s book goes beyond gently correcting historical inaccuracies spewed by Christian nationalists, pointing out that correction is not enough at this political moment. He makes the claim that America’s foundation is in direct opposition of the principles found in the Bible.

“Pointing out errors is no longer sufficient,” says Seidel. “This book does that, but it takes the next step. It goes on the offensive. This book is an assault on the Christian nationalist identity. Not only are Christian nationalists wrong, but their beliefs and their identity run counter to the ideals on which this nation was founded. They are un-American.

For example, there is a common misconception that America’s legal system is based on the Ten Commandments. He devotes an entire chapter of the book to rigorously debunking the myth commandment by commandment.

“When you crack open a Bible and read those it becomes very obvious that they are fundamentally opposed to American values and founding principles,” says Seidel, who points to commandment number one: I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me. “It would be very difficult to write a sentence that is more fundamentally opposed to our First Amendment than the First Commandment.”

Another founding myth that has prevailed is the story of the Pilgrims and Puritans arriving in the New World seeking religious liberty. It isn’t exactly true.

“They were fleeing religious persecution,” says Seidel. “But they didn’t come to America seeking religious freedom. They actually didn’t come to America first.”

First, they fled to Leiden in the Netherlands, one of the (inconveniently) freest, most tolerant countries in Europe. The religious freedom there posed a bit of a problem for the Puritans according to Seidel, who says that the followers were exercising their freedom and leaving the faith. It led the church fathers to conclude that they needed to find a new land where they could use the secular law to impose religious law.

“[That’s] why they came to the New World,” says Seidel. “Not for religious liberty, but seeking the ability to establish tiny theocracies in New England. When the founders looked at that earlier history, they looked at it as an example of how not to build a government.”
Claims on patriotism
Ultimately, ‘The Founding Myth’ is an aim to take away the exclusivity that Christian nationalists attribute to being an American.

“Patriotism has no religion,” says Seidel. “There’s no such thing as the freedom of religion without a government that is free from religion. America’s unique contribution to political science is the wall of separation between state and church. That had never been done before. That is an American original.”

This is something that he says we should be proud of, rather than seeking to undermine with myths about a Christian founding. We also, he mentions, should remind Americans that our Constitution demands the absolute separation of church and state.

“We have to raise hell whenever that wall between state and church is breached,” says Seidel “This is not a Christian nation. Our Constitution does not belong to the Christians. It belongs to we the people, all of the people. And it’s about damn time we start acting like it.”
Last edited by Gunnar on Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
K Graham
God
Posts: 1676
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:25 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by K Graham »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:22 pm
Is that all a conscience is? What exactly is a conscience to you?

Can you give me an example of something unique to Christ that contributes to conscience?
I think you're being evasive and under the assumption that I'm here for combat. I'm not in the case of this question. I was asking because I was genuinely interested in what a conscience is to someone like Schmo who believes faith is a mental illness and psychological disorder. My concept of a conscience has always been tied to my faith.
Then maybe that explains why you don't have much of one. Conscience isn't a religious term. It simply refers to what humans with consciences feel about issues to determine what's right and what's wrong. For example, killing other humans and discriminating over skin color is wrong. Helping the poor, even brown people crossing the border to escape poverty is right.

Someone with a defective conscience would hate immigrants and people of color while praising those who murder for politics.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
Gunnar
God
Posts: 3163
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by Gunnar »

K Graham wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:15 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:22 pm


I think you're being evasive and under the assumption that I'm here for combat. I'm not in the case of this question. I was asking because I was genuinely interested in what a conscience is to someone like Schmo who believes faith is a mental illness and psychological disorder. My concept of a conscience has always been tied to my faith.
Then maybe that explains why you don't have much of one. Conscience isn't a religious term. It simply refers to what humans with consciences feel about issues to determine what's right and what's wrong. For example, killing other humans and discriminating over skin color is wrong. Helping the poor, even brown people crossing the border to escape poverty is right.

Someone with a defective conscience would hate immigrants and people of color while praising those who murder for politics.
Excellent answer. Schmo's concept of conscience is far more moral and compassionate and practical than ajax's.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 3275
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by Some Schmo »

K Graham wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:15 pm
Conscience isn't a religious term. It simply refers to what humans with consciences feel about issues to determine what's right and what's wrong.
Agreed. I've never heard before anyone even suggest a person's conscience is tied to their religion. If anything, people use their religion to assuage their conscience when they've done something that would bother a normal person.

As Dawkins pointed out, the reason people can identify what's good and bad in the Bible is that they are naturally endowed with a sense of right and wrong. It doesn't have to be taught. Ignoring your conscience does.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 8510
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:22 pm
Is that all a conscience is? What exactly is a conscience to you?

Can you give me an example of something unique to Christ that contributes to conscience?
I think you're being evasive and under the assumption that I'm here for combat. I'm not in the case of this question. I was asking because I was genuinely interested in what a conscience is to someone like Schmo who believes faith is a mental illness and psychological disorder. My concept of a conscience has always been tied to my faith.
I answered your question. You haven’t answered mine. I’m happy, anyway, to take a stab at whatever specifics you think that I should expand on.

I don’t think that you’re here for combat. But, you are defining conscience as dependent upon Jesus Christ. I’m genuinely interested in what you believe are the unique aspects of Jesus Christ that enable conscience, and/or how conscience cannot exist or function outside of knowing about Jesus Christ.

I’ll note again that even farm animals ‘understand’ care for their own ‘family’.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 8510
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by canpakes »

Fair warning, ajax, since you mentioned it -
A country in which everyone shared judeo-christian values could be enormously successful.
I’m still going to want to know your definition of those values, and what makes them uniquely Christian.

Do it for the good General.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 3275
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by Some Schmo »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:46 pm
I’m still going to want to know your definition of those values, and what makes them uniquely Christian.
If we go by American "Christians," we know what their values are:

- Everyone should own and carry a gun
- “F” the poor
- Rich people are super special and we should treat them as royalty
- If you get pregnant, you must have the baby, no matter what your situation is; just don't ask anyone for help with the child we forced you to have, because “F” the poor
- Lying is fundamental; telling the truth doesn't sell religion
- Hypocrisy is no big deal; if fact, it's par for the course
- Advertising your religion is super important; just don't call it what it is: virtue signaling. This is especially important if you own a business
- Also, advertising your religion is super important, but listening to others about their religion is to be avoided
- You should love everyone... unless they're gay, another race, another religion... pretty much anyone not exactly like you

That's about it.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
K Graham
God
Posts: 1676
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:25 am

Re: Michael Flynn: We should be a nation of One Religion

Post by K Graham »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:27 pm
K Graham wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:15 pm
Conscience isn't a religious term. It simply refers to what humans with consciences feel about issues to determine what's right and what's wrong.
Agreed. I've never heard before anyone even suggest a person's conscience is tied to their religion. If anything, people use their religion to assuage their conscience when they've done something that would bother a normal person.

As Dawkins pointed out, the reason people can identify what's good and bad in the Bible is that they are naturally endowed with a sense of right and wrong. It doesn't have to be taught. Ignoring your conscience does.
A classic argument against atheism is that without God no one would feel the need to do good, and we'd just rape and kill with reckless abandon as our natural selves take over because in the mind of an atheist there would be no eternal consequences. I think that's kinda where Ajax's mind was heading when he asked you that dumb question as if it were some philosophical mystery how atheists could even have a conscience.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
Post Reply