Something beyond that which the ‘natural’ eyes can see?
It seems as though ever since the Steady State view of the universe went down the tubes and the universe became ‘birthed’ and may die in the far distant future (expanding universe), atheists have had to make some heady adjustments knowing that they no longer had an infinite amount of time to throw into the formula for abiogenesis. When they saw that Fine Tuning seemed to fit the timescale for the universe’s age and that they couldn’t just say, “Well, anything can happen if you have enough time”, they had to do some fancy footwork.
This feels like quite a strawman, MG. Can you define fine tuning so we can start with something? For instance, whoever said "well, anything can happen if you have enough time"?
So we have some pretty weird theories that have been put out there on paper. But as one tries to stretch their mind around multiverse or string theory it becomes readily apparent that a HUGE amount of conjecture is involved. And for me, I see Occam’s Razor carving out a place for God.
That's because you assume God. there's nothing Occam Razor-y about God. All the proposition of God does is multiply more entities and make it all messier rather than more understandable. Plus no one has proved Occam's Razor to be anything more than a the easiest explanation is usually the best one, type of rule.
So believers and non believers come to an impasse. Each having their own reasons for either believing in or not believing in a creator. Much of it, I suspect, to do with having issues…or not…with authority. Having to listen to and obey the teachings of folks who claim to speak for God. Following commandments rather than wholly doing their own thing with no strings attached to a ‘sky daddy’.
That seems to be a ‘big thing’ with many critics and ex-Mormons.
Regards,
MG
I don't think there is an impasse other than in opinion. what impasse are you referring to?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
So we have some pretty weird theories that have been put out there on paper. But as one tries to stretch their mind around multiverse or string theory it becomes readily apparent that a HUGE amount of conjecture is involved. And for me, I see Occam’s Razor carving out a place for God.
So believers and non believers come to an impasse. Each having their own reasons for either believing in or not believing in a creator. Much of it, I suspect, to do with having issues…or not…with authority. Having to listen to and obey the teachings of folks who claim to speak for God. Following commandments rather than wholly doing their own thing with no strings attached to a ‘sky daddy’.
That seems to be a ‘big thing’ with many critics and ex-Mormons.
Regards,
MG
Who told you that physicists postulated the multiverse as a way to get out of theism? This is pure wish fulfillment fantasy. I'd suggest spending more time with physicists and less time with apologists.
MG, I looked about on YouTube and found a presentation By Eric Metaxas about the book you have recommended here. One point he made was that some people think about Galileo as an example of atheist science being falsely condemned by religion. It is more accurate to see a theist scientist , Galileo, following the science and being suppressed by religious authorities who thought they were protecting God. I think Eric is correct here but it does not say much one way or the other about whether God exists. It instead suggests that religious authorities need to have their power clearly limited and people should have the courage to search for truth and reality instead of just following religious authorities who do not know how much they do not know.
I do not see this as a black and white thing. There is a role for social ,political ,and religious authority to remind and lead people toward wisdom.They also present warning signs. There is on the other hand a valuable role for peoples free exploration and search for understanding. Scripture has rule which may be valuable and remind us of the shape of good and responsible behavior. There are also rules in scripture which do not do this , there are rules which are cankered and harmful. We humans must be responsible to move toward the wise understanding and away from the unwise examples of rules.
There is on the other hand a valuable role for peoples free exploration and search for understanding.
Personally, I believe that’s the way God put the universe into motion/existence. Everything is up for grabs. We are free, totally free, from God’s intrusion or interference in our lives unless we search/explore to find greater meaning and purpose beyond ourselves. We can do that on our own, which is fine and good.
We also have the option of taking God’s hand and reaching even higher to seek the eternal world.
God is purposefully inscrutable unless we seek His face. It’s all in the design. Bottom up.
P.S. glad you’re looking at Eric Metaxas. I’m enjoying his new book.
There is on the other hand a valuable role for peoples free exploration and search for understanding.
Personally, I believe that’s the way God put the universe into motion/existence. Everything is up for grabs. We are free, totally free, from God’s intrusion or interference in our lives unless we search/explore to find greater meaning and purpose beyond ourselves. We can do that on our own, which is fine and good.
We also have the option of taking God’s hand and reaching even higher to seek the eternal world.
God is purposefully inscrutable unless we seek His face. It’s all in the design. Bottom up.
P.S. glad you’re looking at Eric Metaxas. I’m enjoying his new book.
Regards,
MG
Unfortunately your god is inscrutable even for many people who seek His face. It's almost as if he doesn't exist.
That is, the difference between non-existence and inscrutability appears to be vanishingly small.
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God is purposefully inscrutable unless we seek His face. It’s all in the design. Bottom up.
Saul of Tarsus.
Moses and the burning bush.
Jonah
Saul never saw Jesus outside of in his head.
Moses is a story written so long after it's supposed occurance that any debate about the historicity of Moses is laughable compounded by the absolute dearth of evidence for Hebrews being captives in Egypt.
Jonah suffers from the same problems as Moses, and it has been a while for me but I can't recall the story of Jonah ever mentioning seeing god/Jesus yada.
You got anything above the quality of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox? I believe you were posting counterpoints to MGs rambling, but surely there are better examples? I know Joseph Smith!!! lololol
Saul never saw Jesus outside of in his head.
Moses is a story written so long after it's supposed occurance that any debate about the historicity of Moses is laughable compounded by the absolute dearth of evidence for Hebrews being captives in Egypt.
Jonah suffers from the same problems as Moses, and it has been a while for me but I can't recall the story of Jonah ever mentioning seeing god/Jesus yada.
You got anything above the quality of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox? I believe you were posting counterpoints to MGs rambling, but surely there are better examples? I know Joseph Smith!!! lololol
The problem goes deeper than that.
Even taking MG's world seriously, it has no internal consistency. His professed rule, about a hidden God who never reveals himself until someone seeks him out, falls apart under even cursory examination.
This is akin to his earlier, goofy assertion that the lack of the miraculous in modernity can be traced to "one of the reasons they did kill the Christ was because he performed miracles."
God is purposefully inscrutable unless we seek His face. It’s all in the design. Bottom up.
Saul of Tarsus.
Moses and the burning bush.
Jonah
The principle/doctrine of witnesses. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1
The track record demonstrates that God doesn’t indiscriminately show himself to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet. Most of us, almost all, are subject to the testimonies of those that have witnessed/seen God.
Saul never saw Jesus outside of in his head.
Moses is a story written so long after it's supposed occurance that any debate about the historicity of Moses is laughable compounded by the absolute dearth of evidence for Hebrews being captives in Egypt.
Jonah suffers from the same problems as Moses, and it has been a while for me but I can't recall the story of Jonah ever mentioning seeing god/Jesus yada.
You got anything above the quality of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox? I believe you were posting counterpoints to MGs rambling, but surely there are better examples? I know Joseph Smith!!! lololol
The problem goes deeper than that.
Even taking MG's world seriously, it has no internal consistency. His professed rule, about a hidden God who never reveals himself until someone seeks him out, falls apart under even cursory examination.
This is akin to his earlier, goofy assertion that the lack of the miraculous in modernity can be traced to "one of the reasons they did kill the Christ was because he performed miracles."
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13
