Kasserian Ingera

[Xenophon]

Xeno I'm posting on the fly. If you look over my posts and specifically the introduction and proposal, I think you will see evidence of a holistic approach. Having law enforcement on campus is one piece of the approach. As I stated, law enforcement is already on school campuses.

I fully recognize that I'm picking on just one part of your approach and I apologize for that. I did note in my disagreement that if we lived in some world that embraced what I think are some really awesome suggestions in your proposal that likely police would behave or operate in a very different way.

You say, "1)They don't seem particularly good at discouraging shootings, there have been many instances of shooters picking locations with armed guard/officers and despite drastic increases in their presence following Columbine we continue to see school shootings. It isn't surprising to me since these shooters represent about as extreme a form of suicidal violence that any human can. Their location choices often have significant personal meaning to them regardless of how they are protected. Perhaps even more officers at a location might curtail violence but so far the track record is pretty terrible for "increased police presence in schools = less school shootings"."

Could you please link me to information that provides an example of student mass shooters who offended where armed guards or officers are present. I'm asking specifically about school shootings which is the main topic of this thread. I do know that Denver school systems removed their SRO's. That's one of the saved articles I have yet to read through.

Sure thing: Columbine, Virgina Tech has their own police department, quite famously Stoneman Douglass, Santa Fe high here in Texas, the most recent one in Oxford. Perhaps there is an argument to be made that these officers reduce the number of deaths but I definitely don't think these officers are working as a deterrent. I also might be in favor of continuing to use them if we could somehow separate the security and access control aspect of their presence with their engagement in the disciplinary piece.

But let me ask you this. If you disagree with creating a larger police presence on school campuses, what might your counter proposal look like?

Please know I don't believe I have all the answers (or maybe any). I also fully recognize most of these aren't new and there is a large gap between idea and execution, there are people a lot smarter than me working on this process, including you . I think your suggestions for fostering a stronger and deeper community bond within our schools is likely a huge step. I'd be happy to see large expansions in resource allocation to our schools, particularly around additional counselors/ing and student support groups. Extra resource should also be given to ensure every school has some form of threat assessment program with a process in place for early intervention(I know the AFT and NEA have done a ton of great work in this area). As far as the gun piece goes, I think universal expansion of background checks, waiting periods, "extreme risk" laws, and child-access laws or probably more broadly, secure storage laws would also be a great start. I honestly haven't done enough research to know what sort of tech solutions are available out there but I'm sure there are some, including your suggestions for things like scanners. Assuming there is some evidence to support their efficacy I'd be down for leveraging those too.

ETA: If I'm pulling us way off the intent of your post I'm happy to just drop it and move forward. I was really enjoying your posts and don't want to disrupt that.

[Atlanticmike]

Jersey, I'm loving this thread so thank you very much for that. I like a lot of what is in your proposal but I'd like to push back on one point and maybe ask you to expand on why you think police presence on campus is necessary.

I think this article from chalkbeat does a good job of summing up the issue as I understand it with some great sourcing.

TL:DR police presence in schools is tied to signifgant increases in arrest and suspension rates. This includes for fairly "low-level" offenses that otherwise would likely have been handled with less strict methods without an officer. These suspensions and arrests disproportionately impact minority students and likely have long term negative impacts as we know that once a kid is caught in the justice system they often struggle to break that cycle.

For me I just don't believe police have a place in schools without some deep and serious reform to how they execute their duties. Perhaps you envision a world that adopts your other proposals as being one that also has a reformed police force but I'd be remiss if I didn't highlight the current disparity.

This is a very "woke" post. Basically you're saying police bad, bullies good. Do you realize how many children go to school afraid? Do you realize how many children that might not be considered "pretty" "handsome" "cool" go to school in fear of passing a bully in the hallway? Do you realize how many children want to commit suicide because of the actions or the words of a bully? If you're interested in reforming our schools the first thing that's gotta happen is throwing out all the bullies. Out of school!! They can stay home or go sit on a bench in the park, I don't care what they do, but interrupting school and causing chaos in the lives of so many children that might be timid or shy is one of the main problems in our public schools. The actions of some of these bullies causes some shy and timid children to feel worthless, and once they get to a point they feel like there's nothing to live for, they can turn into a ticking time bomb.

Often the bullies are bigger, dress better and are more outwardly confident. We need cops, we need parents and we need grandparents in our schools watching and observing behaviors of all the kids and if a bully is causing trouble, kick them out of school. Also, make all the students wear uniforms to school so everyone is on equal ground and know one dresses better than someone else. They're not adults!

[Xenophon]

Mike you can call my position "woke" all you like but you're not refuting it in any way. My thinking on the efficacy of officers in schools is backed by a ton of sound research coupled with my own experience as both a student and my time as a guardian for two kids as they went through middle and high school. You're going to have to come at me with way more to prove a point.

Are children being bullied, absolutely they are. I've just seen little evidence to suggest that cops are the solution to that and I think you'll be hard pressed to find any sort of concensus on that from the experts in the field.

I agree entirely that more adult supervision in schools is helpful, but that has to be paired with an extensive set of programs for diminishing bullies and the training to go along with any additional human resources provided. Parents and grandparent engagement is nice but it doesn't mean much if the parent that is engaged is someone like the Crumbley's.

You and I are in perfect agreement on uniforms. I consider it a serious blessing that my two went to schools with uniforms. It diminishes some of the "cool kid" affect (but certainly not all) and it was significantly easier to manage as a guardian.

[Father Francis]

Interesting topic. I think there's a link between the US ideal of rugged individualism (very present in my Intermountain West homeland) and the ideal nuclear family.

When I separated then divorced, my now ex wife (their mother abandoned them and broke off contact) I moved into a basement apartment in my mother's house while I went back to college so I could earn a good living and be self sufficient. My mother was a public educator at the time. She's now semi retired and runs a flooring company for her new husband. Anyways, she constantly shamed me and the kids and treated us like intruders. She always wonders why my kids don't respect her. At the same time she marveled at the respect for elders coming from students from another culture where multi generational households are the norm... The answer is simple. Respect is a two way street. Kids respect their elders when their elders appreciate them and nurture them.

[Atlanticmike]

Mike you can call my position "woke" all you like but you're not refuting it in any way. My thinking on the efficacy of officers in schools is backed by a ton of sound research coupled with my own experience as both a student and my time as a guardian for two kids as they went through middle and high school. You're going to have to come at me with way more to prove a point.

Are children being bullied, absolutely they are. I've just seen little evidence to suggest that cops are the solution to that and I think you'll be hard pressed to find any sort of concensus on that from the experts in the field.

I agree entirely that more adult supervision in schools is helpful, but that has to be paired with an extensive set of programs for diminishing bullies and the training to go along with any additional human resources provided. Parents and grandparent engagement is nice but it doesn't mean much if the parent that is engaged is someone like the Crumbley's.

You and I are in perfect agreement on uniforms. I consider it a serious blessing that my two went to schools with uniforms. It diminishes some of the "cool kid" affect (but certainly not all) and it was significantly easier to manage as a guardian.

I think we agree on most of the points made. But I come at it entirely from the perspective of the children being picked on. We need to protect the kids that want to learn and make sure they have an environment that let's them walk the halls without being scared of bullies. Once a child starts being picked on by one or multiple bullies their personality changes from the stress. They become guarded, they keep to them themselves, they are constantly stressed and get to a point where they just don't care what happens to them anymore. They start thinking about revenge and become so angry inside, death seems like a good option to relieve all the stress and anxiety. Bullies should be kicked out of school and either stay strong home or go to an alternative school that deals with bullies.

[Morley]

I think we agree on most of the points made. But I come at it entirely from the perspective of the children being picked on. We need to protect the kids that want to learn and make sure they have an environment that let's them walk the halls without being scared of bullies. Once a child starts being picked on by one or multiple bullies their personality changes from the stress. They become guarded, they keep to them themselves, they are constantly stressed and get to a point where they just don't care what happens to them anymore. They start thinking about revenge and become so angry inside, death seems like a good option to relieve all the stress and anxiety. Bullies should be kicked out of school and either stay strong home or go to an alternative school that deals with bullies.

It's not that easy. One person's bully is another person's "my kid was just standing up for herself."

Mike, here's a thought experiment. Let's suppose that you passed the background check and you're an adult volunteer in a public high school. You take Tuesdays and Thursdays off from running your roofing business to help out. After spending a couple of hours photocopying some papers for a few of the teachers you're working with, you see a group of kids teasing another kid. You go up to them and try to intervene. They ignore you. You're insistent. They taunt you a little, then turn their backs and return to ignoring you. What are you going to do?

[Jersey Girl]

I think we agree on most of the points made. But I come at it entirely from the perspective of the children being picked on. We need to protect the kids that want to learn and make sure they have an environment that let's them walk the halls without being scared of bullies. Once a child starts being picked on by one or multiple bullies their personality changes from the stress. They become guarded, they keep to them themselves, they are constantly stressed and get to a point where they just don't care what happens to them anymore. They start thinking about revenge and become so angry inside, death seems like a good option to relieve all the stress and anxiety. Bullies should be kicked out of school and either stay strong home or go to an alternative school that deals with bullies.

It's not that easy. One person's bully is another person's "my kid was just standing up for herself."

Mike, here's a thought experiment. Let's suppose that you passed the background check and you're an adult volunteer in a public high school. You take Tuesdays and Thursdays off from running your roofing business to help out. After spending a couple of hours photocopying some papers for a few of the teachers you're working with, you see a group of kids teasing another kid. You go up to them and try to intervene. They ignore you. You're insistent. They taunt you a little, then turn their backs and return to ignoring you. What are you going to do?

I know the answer to this. I'll wait...

[Morley]

I'm all for uniforms in public schools. The reality is that kids hate them, and because of that parents hate them. If even 20% of your parent population vociferously hates something, it's not going to be implemented. Ha! Just look at the problems regarding mask mandates.

[Jersey Girl]

3 teens now charged with brutally beating 16-year-old Texas student

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/crime ... nEFeXZmNjE

[Atlanticmike]

I think we agree on most of the points made. But I come at it entirely from the perspective of the children being picked on. We need to protect the kids that want to learn and make sure they have an environment that let's them walk the halls without being scared of bullies. Once a child starts being picked on by one or multiple bullies their personality changes from the stress. They become guarded, they keep to them themselves, they are constantly stressed and get to a point where they just don't care what happens to them anymore. They start thinking about revenge and become so angry inside, death seems like a good option to relieve all the stress and anxiety. Bullies should be kicked out of school and either stay strong home or go to an alternative school that deals with bullies.

It's not that easy. One person's bully is another person's "my kid was just standing up for herself."

Mike, here's a thought experiment. Let's suppose that you passed the background check and you're an adult volunteer in a public high school. You take Tuesdays and Thursdays off from running your roofing business to help out. After spending a couple of hours photocopying some papers for a few of the teachers you're working with, you see a group of kids teasing another kid. You go up to them and try to intervene. They ignore you. You're insistent. They taunt you a little, then turn their backs and return to ignoring you. What are you going to do?

Turn them in and hopefully they get suspended. There are bullies in this world and we are never going to be able to change that. They don't belong in schools. Especially now when it's really easy to homeschool. The bullies can homeschool, go to community college and work it out from there.