The distance between Christianity and the 4 Gospels

[MG 2.0]

Since the flood is symbolic of baptism, and Mormons strictly reject sprinkling or any baptism not by full emersion, Mormons are locked into a global flood. Even the tip of Everest peeking above the waters would require a redo. Since the Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, we assume a population spread across both old and new world. The flood must have Killed everyone, even any living in mountains. If anyone but Noah and family survived, then the doctrines of lineage and priesthood taught by Joseph Smith are false, as Shem Ham and Japath aren't the only players.

If Mopologists want to admit a Catholic priest touching a baby with a drop of water is closer to revealed scripture than the doctrine of immersion, then they can deny the flood in good faith. And don't tell me the physical events behind the symbol aren't important. Joseph Smith even said as doctrine that 8 people on the ark symbolized 8 years of age.

Since DCP says science is always learning new things then believers can more easily just say a global flood is one of those new things science will verify one day.

Here is a good source dealing with the evolution of Mormon thought on the Great Flood being a baptism of the earth.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... S-thought/

Orson Pratt was big on it.

Orson was the first Latter-day Saint on record to preach the doctrine of the Flood being a baptism of the Earth. In addition, Orson was looked to as a leading theologian in the church. Hence, if Orson taught it, then it is likely to have spread from him (i.e., rather than being independently discovered by other leaders).

All three Protestant sources for the doctrine were likely accessible and of interest to Orson Pratt.

Orson’s older brother Parley had been strongly influenced by Sidney Rigdon and the Campbellites and a significant number of influential leaders in the church had been Campbellites. Many LDS doctrines/practices are similar to those of the Campbellite movement. In the King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith mentions Alexander Campbell by name and seeks to point out his flawed thinking, thus suggesting a continued interchange of ideas between Mormons and Campbellites. Hence, it seems plausible that Orson could have gleaned this teaching from the 1829 source or another Campbellite source.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Here is a good source dealing with the evolution of Mormon thought on the Great Flood being a baptism of the earth.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... S-thought/

No, your source does NOT deal with "the evolution of Mormon thought" on that topic. It lists 4 (very short) Mormon quotes, dated from 1852 to 1855, found using google books n-gram viewer, presumably lifted from other religions and all virtually identical.

Come on, dude. Quit posting random links you googled up that don't comment on the topic.

[malkie]

Here is a good source dealing with the evolution of Mormon thought on the Great Flood being a baptism of the earth.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... S-thought/

No, your source does NOT deal with "the evolution of Mormon thought" on that topic. It lists 4 (very short) Mormon quotes, dated from 1852 to 1855, found using google books n-gram viewer, presumably lifted from other religions and all virtually identical.

Come on, dude. Quit posting random links you googled up that don't comment on the topic.

Interesting: the blog MG is quoting belongs to an ex-mo - former BYU faculty member - who resigned.

After carefully examining alternative models for the Church’s foundational truth claims, I decided that alternative models fit the data much better than the LDS narratives (either official or apologetic). In my opinion, the fit is remarkable even using only the data that is generally accepted / acknowledged by LDS apologists.

After about a year of having decided alternative models fit better and only becoming more confident in that assessment over time, I felt morally obligated to resign from the Church. I finished out tithing season as ward finance clerk, trained a replacement, and then formally resigned from the Church in January 2016.

[MG 2.0]

Since the flood is symbolic of baptism, and Mormons strictly reject sprinkling or any baptism not by full emersion, Mormons are locked into a global flood. Even the tip of Everest peeking above the waters would require a redo. Since the Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, we assume a population spread across both old and new world. The flood must have Killed everyone, even any living in mountains. If anyone but Noah and family survived, then the doctrines of lineage and priesthood taught by Joseph Smith are false, as Shem Ham and Japath aren't the only players.

If Mopologists want to admit a Catholic priest touching a baby with a drop of water is closer to revealed scripture than the doctrine of immersion, then they can deny the flood in good faith. And don't tell me the physical events behind the symbol aren't important. Joseph Smith even said as doctrine that 8 people on the ark symbolized 8 years of age.

Since DCP says science is always learning new things then believers can more easily just say a global flood is one of those new things science will verify one day.

Here is a good source dealing with the evolution of Mormon thought on the Great Flood being a baptism of the earth.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... S-thought/

Orson Pratt was big on it.

Orson was the first Latter-day Saint on record to preach the doctrine of the Flood being a baptism of the Earth. In addition, Orson was looked to as a leading theologian in the church. Hence, if Orson taught it, then it is likely to have spread from him (i.e., rather than being independently discovered by other leaders).

All three Protestant sources for the doctrine were likely accessible and of interest to Orson Pratt.

Orson’s older brother Parley had been strongly influenced by Sidney Rigdon and the Campbellites and a significant number of influential leaders in the church had been Campbellites. Many LDS doctrines/practices are similar to those of the Campbellite movement. In the King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith mentions Alexander Campbell by name and seeks to point out his flawed thinking, thus suggesting a continued interchange of ideas between Mormons and Campbellites. Hence, it seems plausible that Orson could have gleaned this teaching from the 1829 source or another Campbellite source.

Regards,
MG

And the link within the link takes a rather deep dive. The early brethren took a lot from their Protestant neighbors.

https://rsc.BYU.edu/let-us-reason-toget ... tism-earth

Snow, Phelps, and Pratt were all heavily influenced by the Biblical interpretations/culture of their time. Those opinions and scriptural exegesis can move on and continue, by default, generationally.

As has been said, this ‘doctrine’ isn’t focused on or talked about much anymore. And it, along with the Great Flood literally covering the whole earth (baptism), isn’t much emphasized nowadays.

This may be another example of line upon line, precept upon precept. The early church had its roots in Protestant teachings and other ‘doctrines’within the mileu that they were immersed in.

Those beliefs, in some cases, carried on within the culture/ teachings of the restored church. Some of them are dispensed with as further light and knowledge comes forth. Often through scientific exploration, etc.

That seems to bother some folks, especially those that may be more along the fundie persuasion or see the world in a more or less binary fashion.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

That seems to bother some folks, especially those that may be more along the fundie persuasion or see the world in a more or less binary fashion.

Regards,
MG

another attempt at provocation, mg2? That's okay. No, you're not bothering anyone with your transparent attempts to disrupt. : D

No, your source does NOT deal with "the evolution of Mormon thought" on that topic. It lists 4 (very short) Mormon quotes, dated from 1852 to 1855, found using google books n-gram viewer, presumably lifted from other religions and all virtually identical.

Come on, dude. Quit posting random links you googled up that don't comment on the topic.

Interesting: the blog MG is quoting belongs to an ex-mo - former BYU faculty member - who resigned.

After carefully examining alternative models for the Church’s foundational truth claims, I decided that alternative models fit the data much better than the LDS narratives (either official or apologetic). In my opinion, the fit is remarkable even using only the data that is generally accepted / acknowledged by LDS apologists.

After about a year of having decided alternative models fit better and only becoming more confident in that assessment over time, I felt morally obligated to resign from the Church. I finished out tithing season as ward finance clerk, trained a replacement, and then formally resigned from the Church in January 2016.

Wow. That's very succinctly put by that blog owner. Thanks for the quotes, malkie, and the information.

[IHAQ]

Interesting: the blog MG is quoting belongs to an ex-mo - former BYU faculty member - who resigned.

After carefully examining alternative models for the Church’s foundational truth claims, I decided that alternative models fit the data much better than the LDS narratives (either official or apologetic). In my opinion, the fit is remarkable even using only the data that is generally accepted / acknowledged by LDS apologists.

After about a year of having decided alternative models fit better and only becoming more confident in that assessment over time, I felt morally obligated to resign from the Church. I finished out tithing season as ward finance clerk, trained a replacement, and then formally resigned from the Church in January 2016.

Priceless.

[MG 2.0]

Interesting: the blog MG is quoting belongs to an ex-mo - former BYU faculty member - who resigned.

Priceless.

‘The grand fundamental principle of Mormonism is to receive truth let it come from where it may.’ As the prophet Joseph Smith stated: “If the Methodists, Presbyterians, or others have any truth, then we should embrace it. One must ‘get all the good in the world’ if one wants to ‘come out a pure Mormon.”
Joseph Smith

Oh, and ex-Mormons.

The ‘doctrines’ of the flood received by Phelps, Pratt, and Snow, from their Protestant friends and clergy, were adapted then later clarified, filtered, and in some cases deemphasized as further light and knowledge came through the restoration.

Which, by the way, is still a work in process.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

… and in some cases deemphasized as further light and knowledge [is achieved].

Which, by the way, is still a work in process.

-_-

That’s called science, bro. Big brain moment right there.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

… and in some cases deemphasized as further light and knowledge [is achieved].

Which, by the way, is still a work in process.

-_-

That’s called science, bro. Big brain moment right there.

- Doc

Go upthread a few posts. Already said that. Good to have it reinforced though.

doubtingthomas made some good points earlier. Dovetails with what I’m saying.

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

Go upthread a few posts. Already said that. Good to have it reinforced though.

doubtingthomas made some good points earlier. Dovetails with what I’m saying.

Regards,
MG

You can't claim Mormonism is just science, or follows a scientific method. It posits many magical things that aren't verified.