Look, putting a rock in a hat and pretending to translate ancient writing on plates under a cloth is not something the world at large will ever accept. It's crazy talk.
Admittedly, it does sound like crazy talk until you consider that in the early nineteenth century there were limited means/methods to accomplish what can easily be done today. It is not incomprehensible that God would use the means accessible to Joseph. Seer stones were used as a means to connect with powers beyond those in the natural world as it was understood at the time.
It doesn’t surprise me that the Lord would communicate via a ‘device’ that Joseph was familiar and comfortable with.
It does take a degree of faith in that which cannot be readily interpreted/seen through the natural eyes to believe in a God that can communicate with His creations through various ways and means which may be unfamiliar…crazy…to us.
MG
But the facts are not in your favor or supportive of RFM’s efforts to portray Joseph Smith as a simple magician/con artist.
Oh, but they are, indeed they certainly are. And the entire 100% full lack of archaeological substantive, historical verity reality to either Nephites or Lamanites are entirely on RFM's side, absolutely entirely.
And where is the narrow neck? Will someone please tell me where the hell the narrow neck is?
MG
But the facts are not in your favor or supportive of RFM’s efforts to portray Joseph Smith as a simple magician/con artist.
Oh, but they are, indeed they certainly are.
Care to expound? I’ve asked a number of questions of RFM which he has not answered. Shulem made an attempt. I won’t comment on his answers. In my opinion he is simply misdirecting. A sleight of hand to avoid seriously answering.
Joseph, a simple magician? Pray tell, convince the doubters.
I don’t expect that you will actually answer, in a serious way, the problems/questions I put to RFM in two separate posts on page four of this thread…and earlier.
Admittedly, it does sound like crazy talk until you consider that in the early nineteenth century there were limited means/methods to accomplish what can easily be done today. It is not incomprehensible that God would use the means accessible to Joseph. Seer stones were used as a means to connect with powers beyond those in the natural world as it was understood at the time.
The 19th century EXCUSE for performing cultish rituals does not fly with me. People today in the 21st century are doing crazier things than Smith ever did. So, you're excuse to excuse Joseph Smith's crazy behavior does not fly with me. I don't buy it.
It doesn’t surprise me that the Lord would communicate via a ‘device’ that Joseph was familiar and comfortable with.
Find yourself a device you're comfortable with and go enquire of the Lord of the whereabouts of that narrow neck and then come back and report. Can you do that? Will you do that?
It does take a degree of faith in that which cannot be readily interpreted/seen through the natural eyes to believe in a God that can communicate with His creations through various ways and means which may be unfamiliar…crazy…to us.
And there you go, all you have is faith no matter what degree it's in that is all you have. Faith doesn't fly with me. Give me proof!
I don't have a problem. You do. Where is the narrow neck of land?
For a fact? I don’t know. But that doesn’t really matter. There are other things that are much more important.
Cheap magic tricks vs. God inspired revelation for one.
We have at least one poster who is now suggested Joseph Smith was a savant. Although absolutely no evidence is provided to show that he demonstrated savant like characteristics. Except for a ‘one off’ in regards to the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is about 268,163 words long, taking up 531 (very dense) pages in its current edition. You’re not likely to get through it in a breezy afternoon reading session. It was also the first written work he ever produced, which is relevant given that most authors have early projects that prepare them for their eventual masterpieces. Joseph Smith’s magnum opus came out of nowhere and, aside from scattered revelations (including the Joseph Smith Translation), sermons, and the relatively brief Book of Abraham, his writing career ended almost as quickly. We could potentially account for these additional works in his word count, but what we’re most interested in here is the debut production of an author. Similar analyses could be done for other aspects of an authors’ writings, such as lifetime composition, but that would be unlikely to help the critics’ case, given how unique Joseph’s writing career is in that regard. We’ll keep it simple and stick with the Book of Mormon itself.
The publication of the Book of Mormon was completed when Joseph Smith was 24, though its dictation took place when he was 23. We’ll go with 24 just for the sake of argument, though. It’s commonly claimed that Joseph Smith had three years of formal education, and if we’re trying to align it with an equivalent public school education today, that’s probably not far off. If we’re trying to be technical about it, though, there were seven distinct years in which he received some sort of schooling, including a season in high school when he was 20.
I don't have a problem. You do. Where is the narrow neck of land?
For a fact? I don’t know. But that doesn’t really matter. There are other things that are much more important.
Yes, it really, really, does matter. You know where the Sea of Galilee is and where the cedars of Lebanon are. You know about the Red Sea and exactly how to get to Egypt. I'll bet you can even find Jerusalem on a map! Of course you can. All that is necessary in order to understand the geography of the Bible and its place in a world setting. A testimony of the geography based on facts. But not so with the Book of Mormon. You can't show me on a map where the capital city of Zarahemla is or the great Bountiful temple in which Jesus appeared before thousands of people. You can't show me that narrow neck of land that takes only a day to cross from sea to sea exactly as described in the text.
Will you bear me your testimony that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a narrow neck of land on the map, somewhere, exactly as described in the Book of Mormon? Bear me your testimony that you know it's there, on the map.
For a fact? I don’t know. But that doesn’t really matter. There are other things that are much more important.
Yes, it really, really, does matter. You know where the Sea of Galilee is and where the cedars of Lebanon are. You know about the Red Sea and exactly how to get to Egypt. I'll bet you can even find Jerusalem on a map! Of course you can. All that is necessary in order to understand the geography of the Bible and its place in a world setting. A testimony of the geography based on facts. But not so with the Book of Mormon. You can't show me on a map where the capital city of Zarahemla is or the great Bountiful temple in which Jesus appeared before thousands of people. You can't show me that narrow neck of land that takes only a day to cross from sea to sea exactly as described in the text.
Will you bear me your testimony that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a narrow neck of land on the map, somewhere, exactly as described in the Book of Mormon? Bear me your testimony that you know it's there, on the map.
Shulem: Show me the narrow neck and I will believe.
