I hope you continue this conversation with Free Ranger. As you can see, he was initially misjudged and tossed off as some kind of lunatic.
He has an interesting view of things. So do you. I hope to hear you two continue the conversation.
Marcus/Lemmie, would you be willing to let these two have a conversation without butting in with your nonsense? At least for a bit so the rest of us can enjoy the back and forth?
By the way, I accepted your invitation. Would you now accept mine? It can be quick and easy then we can leave it.
Maybe a patriarchy works for you. It doesn’t for me. It seems crazy to me to disqualify half the human population from leadership positions on the basis of genetilia. In s couple generations, my profession has gone from almost entirely male to much more balanced, and I think the profession is better for it.
So, if you thrive on patriarchy, go find one and thrive. Just don’t try to impose it on me.
Same in my profession. If the patriarchal assumptions stated in this thread showed up there, it would end with a visit from Human Resources. Those things really don’t fly in the real world anymore.
Dead end. Let Res Ipsa and Free Ranger have a discussion. You might even find it interesting/enlightening.
mentalgymnast, in response to an announcement of an upcoming presentation, wrote:
by the way, loser, we are already well aware that you don't believe in the Divine calling of Joseph Smith...so what's your point in preaching to the choir? You already know you're gonna just get high fives. So what's your point? Much ado about nothing, isn't it?
You're a loser, grindael. Ya, I know I just called you a loser. But the shoe fits.
I am going to pop in here, although I am sure the outcome will not be pleasant.
First of all, I really don't think that the LDS Church is a healthy environment in terms of its gender values. It just isn't.
That said, we are in the midst of what I would call a gender hysteria that is filled with unhealthy excesses on all sides. My advice to anyone is to tune out all of the noise, mind your own business, treat everyone with dignity and respect, treat yourself and others with compassion, and ignore the vast majority of what is going on in the identity wars.
I started to read this thread and I just had to stop. It gets ugly pretty quickly. And I find that both exhausting and discouraging.
Look, just be a decent human being. Wherever you are. No, things are not "better" in the LDS Church, and they are not better in a LGBTQIA activists' meeting, if you are an asshole who seeks to make the lives of others miserable through your self-righteousness, disdain, labeling of others, and general nastiness.
On the other hand, you will find decent human beings everywhere. You will find assholes everywhere.
This board is a fine example. As is DCP's blog. As is the LDS Church. As is the alt-right. As is the DNC.
Be the person who does not contribute to the nastiness and noise, no matter where you choose to be. Where you choose to be is your choice and decision. You are not a monster or an angel because you choose to be LDS. You are not a monster or an angel because you choose to be an LGBTQIA activist. You are a decent human being wherever you are if you choose to be one and actually follow through on that decision.
That said, don't be an ethno-nationalist, a fascist, or part of a criminal enterprise. There are some places where by definition it is almost impossible to be a decent person.
"I have learned with what evils tyranny infects a state. For it frustrates all the virtues, robs freedom of its lofty mood, and opens a school of fawning and terror, inasmuch as it leaves matters not to the wisdom of the laws, but to the angry whim of those who are in authority.”
Kishkumen wrote:
I am going to pop in here, although I am sure the outcome will not be pleasant.
Nonsense! You are welcome everywhere, Dear Reverend.
First of all, I really don't think that the LDS Church is a healthy environment in terms of its gender values. It just isn't.
No argument there.
That said, we are in the midst of what I would call a gender hysteria that is filled with unhealthy excesses on all sides. My advice to anyone is to tune out all of the noise, mind your own business, treat everyone with dignity and respect, treat yourself and others with compassion, and ignore the vast majority of what is going on in the identity wars.
Good advice, although I would add there is nothing wrong with objecting to the use of stereotyping based on insupportable assumptions when such a position is presented in your environment. in my opinion, it makes the atmosphere less hostile for all people in the long run. In the short run, such disagreement can be uncomfortable, but thankfully our free speech policy allows both the posting of and the objection to ideas.
I started to read this thread and I just had to stop. It gets ugly pretty quickly. And I find that both exhausting and discouraging.
I don't think you were getting attacked Free Ranger. Six people responding isn't six attacks. Many of your talking points have links to talking points about masculinity on the right…
History repeats itself… : D
Edited to add
...don't be an ethno-nationalist, a fascist, or part of a criminal enterprise. There are some places where by definition it is almost impossible to be a decent person.
I'm sort of torn when this kind of topic comes up.
The older and wiser part of me has the feeling that a lot of these Neo-chauvinist incel guys are people in pain, and it's hard to deal with anything well when you're hurting. There ought to be some way to give these guys a safe space where they can catch their breath and calm down and get their bearings again, or something. Maybe they've been looking for love in too many wrong places, and are just too bruised to look up and look around and see the brighter alternatives. There are better places to look, not all of them in conservative religions.
The part of me that still remembers my brief military experience isn't so understanding. It wants to say something like, "If you're so into traditional masculinity, buddy, why don't you start with Rule One and quit whining?" That's cold and cruel, an example of all that's wrong with traditional masculinity. I don't actually want to be like that. But it's just so ironic to hear people beating their chests about our culture's lost respect for manliness, or whatever, when that kind of blaming everyone around you for your problems is exactly what old-school manly men would despise.
Free Ranger
But you give me a better structure for keeping a marriage intact? Give me a better Christian-ethics-based community/familial fraternity, that respects men and honors men as men?
Good to meet you Ranger! Welcome. I would say I don't worry about neither Mormon or Christian basis in marriage at all, but in a human/love/friendship basis. This second time for me has worked for 34 years as opposed to the mere 4 1/2 years of Mormon based marriage... friendship/love marriage is vastly superior to any religious basis in my opinion.
Well put, Philo.
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
I'm sort of torn when this kind of topic comes up.
The older and wiser part of me has the feeling that a lot of these Neo-chauvinist incel guys are people in pain, and it's hard to deal with anything well when you're hurting. There ought to be some way to give these guys a safe space where they can catch their breath and calm down and get their bearings again, or something. Maybe they've been looking for love in too many wrong places, and are just too bruised to look up and look around and see the brighter alternatives. There are better places to look, not all of them in conservative religions.
The part of me that still remembers my brief military experience isn't so understanding. It wants to say something like, "If you're so into traditional masculinity, buddy, why don't you start with Rule One and quit whining?" That's cold and cruel, an example of all that's wrong with traditional masculinity. I don't actually want to be like that. But it's just so ironic to hear people beating their chests about our culture's lost respect for manliness, or whatever, when that kind of blaming everyone around you for your problems is exactly what old-school manly men would despise.
Irony Bingo!
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
First of all, I really don't think that the LDS Church is a healthy environment in terms of its gender values. It just isn't.
I agree. I also like what Jon Stewart has to say about "Wokeism"--until he got labeled as "woke" he just thought he was really good at history. "Woke" is simply the disparaging word du jour by one of the extremes (this time, the far right). Dig just beyond the surface and it is merely a disparagement of previously obscured or overlooked facts of history coming to light and informing us. It is a term slung by those that want to keep history focused only on the contributions of white males.
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
