Gaslighting Planets

[Kishkumen]

Kiskumen,
I think outsider comments about getting a planet makes it seem like the idea is a prize for passing the test. Images can trivialize it. That leaves out the great big matter of exaltation which is much more than a prize. But the transformations considered are a mystery. There is a lot there which overlaps traditional Christian hopes. There is more than enough unknown to make that difficult to speak of. Reluctance of leaders to try and explain in a general interview is understandable. I have never seem much reason to be shocked by the Larry King interview. ,

"LDS folks cherish the temple"
I find myself wondering if I have heard that phrase before. May have been too long ago to remember. Is there a way you could express the why and how? (or is it either obvious to someone or not really communicable?)

Τhanks for this thoughtful post, huckelberry. Yes, I think there is a lot more overlap with traditional Christian hopes in the Mormon doctrine of exaltation than many people realize. Even when you speak of getting a prize for passing a test, it was the apostle Paul who likened the Christian to an ancient athlete whose quest for salvation was a rigorous striving to overcome.

Moreover, the Orthodox faith and the Church Fathers have numerous times discussed “theosis,” Christian divinizarían through the grace of Christ. Mind you, I am not saying that the Mormon version is identical to the Orthodox version, far from it (and I am inclined to say I wish the two were more similar, with the LDS view leaning more in the direction of the Orthodox one), but this lampooning of Mormons for teaching a form of divinizarían of the Christian through Christ is mean spirited and unfair, not to mention bigoted.

I am Facebook friends with some faithful LDS people who absolutely love the temple. They include former ex-Mormons, BYU professors, and members of my own family. I cherish the temple to this day. My experience in the LDS temple was a crucial part of my spiritual development. The chance to go to the House of the Lord and be able to step outside of the mundane world to focus on spiritual things was something I cherished. Some of my most memorable experiences in life occurred in the temple. I understand that the temple is not for everyone, and I wish that not everyone was sent through it, or, at the very least, better prepared and better taught before they go.

I don’t know exactly what you are asking about regarding the origin of the phrase I used. Maybe I picked it up somewhere and yet I do not recall its origin.

[Kishkumen]

I would have to agree that some of the examples of gaslighting were stronger than others.

Still, thank you for helping me think through my views on this. Without your podcast . . . Without Bill Reel’s treatment of these things, I would not have had the chance to sit back and reflect on why I did not agree with his characterization of the doctrine of exaltation.

You both really do deserve kudos.

[Doctor Steuss]

The GOD who cannot create other GODs is far superior, because such a GOD wasn't the brainchild of some other GOD bigger than HIM.

There's nothing my god cannot do. My god can create a god that's bigger than him, and then make himself bigger than the god that is bigger that he just created. All while being the biggest.

Superior.

*self-high-five*

[Analytics]

There is a reason why LDS converts do not head to the temple or know about it in their first days of membership. They do not understand the significance of the deeper teachings and more demanding practices in such a way that they would be able to appreciate them and benefit from them. Unfortunately, the LDS Church has largely failed to prepare even more seasoned members to appreciate and benefit from the same things. That failure results in people buying into views of their own religion that amount to denigration and even hostile attacks.

I have a different perspective.

When I was a missionary in Argentina, we met a wonderful family tracking. They happened to have about three daughters that were about our age, and looking back at it, that had a lot to do with why they were willing to talk to us. We became friends with them and started going through the discussions. They loved the Joseph Smith story in the first discussion. They committed to reading the Book of Mormon. They started reading it. They loved hearing about faith, repentance, baptism, and confirmation in the second discussion. They committed to follow the example of Jesus Christ and be baptized. Things were going great. We were having these wonderful spiritual conversations and they seemed genuinely interested.

We then got to the third discussion, and asked them to come to church with us the next Sunday. They said yes.

And that is when our heart sank.

You must know why. Even though we'd been talking up about how wonderful our religion is, the truth is that Church meetings were three long hours of embarrassing awkward boredom. Going to a Mormon church simply wasn't going to deliver the goods we'd been promising.

They came to church and then frankly told us they didn't like it, and they dropped out of our teaching pool soon after.

I think the temple is the same way, but even more so. The problem isn't that "the LDS Church has largely failed to prepare even more seasoned members to appreciate and benefit from" temple worship. The problem is that temple worship sucks, and no degree of "preparation" can change that.

The emperor has no clothes.

That's the real issue.

[Kishkumen]

I think the "getting to have your own planet" thing, while funny on some level, really is a caricature that distorts the central theological idea. What does that even mean--"get to have your own planet"? Do you "own" it? Do you live on it all by your lonesome? Do you get to populate it with flora and fauna, and people as you see fit? Saying that "Mormons believe they get to have their own planet" is a caricature because it minimizes the actual doctrine--which is that you become *a God*--and treats that belief like something out of Flash Gordon.

Thank you, Doctor. Very well said. I would add that I think Brigham Young’s view of things probably carried them more into the realm of the lampoonable. He was not a subtle and nuanced man in many ways, and I think he did the doctrines of Mormonism some big disservices. His concept of Adam-God is regrettable, as is this whole silly idea of conceiving spirit children in the hereafter, when Smith clearly taught that spirits, or intelligences, are eternal. There is no need to conceive through some kind of celestial sex that which already exists.

In not a few ways, I wish Brigham Young had never been president of the LDS Church. But he was, and I think his way of viewing things is a big contributing factor in making Mormonism doctrines relating to exaltation seem cartoonish.

Personally, I think the use of the word “gods” ought to be eased off of, and it actually is. Jesus did quote the scriptures when he said, “Ye are gods,” and I think there is a profound truth wrapped up in that, but that does not really mean, in my opinion, that human beings are anywhere close to being on a level with the Most High God, theologically speaking. All it means is that humankind has divine capacities, and that through Christ those capacities can be enlarged far beyond what we can imagine.

And here is the thing, we cannot imagine even a small piece of the totality of reality and existence. We are much better off remembering that, whether we believe in Mormonism, believe in Christianity, or even believe in the existence of God, or not.

[MG 2.0]

It becomes more and more apparent that the CHRISTIAN GOD of the Bible is far superior to the one Mormons regard.

On the scale of "My deity can beat up your deity," which one would be superior:

A God that can create Gods?
Or, a God that can't create Gods?

One minor quibble with your first question.

I would say, “A God that can create and maintain a plan by which His children can choose to become godlike.”

I know it’s a bit longer, but I think it encapsulates LDS doctrine a bit better. God’s gotta work with the material that’s out there. Including us poor shlubs.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

I believe if one is honest, one will have a very hard time explaining "human exultation" in light of this Bible verse: Isaiah 43:10

The spelling is “exaltation.”

Isaiah 43:10
“You are MY witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and MY servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe ME
and understand that I AM HE.
Before ME no god was formed,
nor will there be one after ME.

Needless to say, one scripture taken out of context does not settle the matter at all.

This simple statement from GOD says, there ARE no other gods! There were none before our LORD GOD, and none are going to be created at anytime in the future.

That is not exactly true, though, if we take the New Testament teachings about being joint-heirs with Christ into account. As usual, you bring a limited perspective from cherry-picked scriptures to the table and declare the matter settled. Yours is a very partial accounting of things.

[Kishkumen]

I have a different perspective.

When I was a missionary in Argentina, we met a wonderful family tracking. They happened to have about three daughters that were about our age, and looking back at it, that had a lot to do with why they were willing to talk to us. We became friends with them and started going through the discussions. They loved the Joseph Smith story in the first discussion. They committed to reading the Book of Mormon. They started reading it. They loved hearing about faith, repentance, baptism, and confirmation in the second discussion. They committed to follow the example of Jesus Christ and be baptized. Things were going great. We were having these wonderful spiritual conversations and they seemed genuinely interested.

We then got to the third discussion, and asked them to come to church with us the next Sunday. They said yes.

And that is when our heart sank.

You must know why. Even though we'd been talking up about how wonderful our religion is, the truth is that Church meetings were three long hours of embarrassing awkward boredom. Going to a Mormon church simply wasn't going to deliver the goods we'd been promising.

They came to church and then frankly told us they didn't like it, and they dropped out of our teaching pool soon after.

I think the temple is the same way, but even more so. The problem isn't that "the LDS Church has largely failed to prepare even more seasoned members to appreciate and benefit from" temple worship. The problem is that temple worship sucks, and no degree of "preparation" can change that.

The emperor has no clothes.

That's the real issue.

Great way to say your perspective is valid and mine isn’t. I would say, to the contrary, that Mormonism isn’t your cup of tea and you are glad to be out of it. I am happy for you. You have made an important discovery for yourself. But your discovery is your discovery and may not apply to everyone in their journey. It is not necessarily the case for everyone that “the emperor has no clothes” and that “temple worship sucks.”

[MG 2.0]

I think the temple is the same way, but even more so. The problem isn't that "the LDS Church has largely failed to prepare even more seasoned members to appreciate and benefit from" temple worship. The problem is that temple worship sucks, and no degree of "preparation" can change that.

The emperor has no clothes.

That's the real issue.

At times I’ve had to muddle my way through temple service. Other times I have had experiences that are truly difficult to describe with words. This last week my wife and I went to do some sealings for family names that had been researched and then prepared to take to the temple.

It didn’t suck.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

And this is where Mormonism and JUDAISM/CHRISTIANITY begin to rip apart. It becomes more and more apparent that the CHRISTIAN GOD of the Bible is far superior to the one Mormons regard. And it does appear to Christians who have spoken one on one with Mormons that the goal of Mormonism isn't to ultimately exult GOD but to achieve exultation for themselves and become a god. Anyway, I hope I've not offended anyone. And if I'm wrong about this matter, please inform me otherwise.

I think you are definitely wrong about Mormons not “exulting” God but “exulting” themselves to become a god. I think the quest for exaltation through Christ is one and the same as “exulting” God.

That said, I think there are some big problems with LDS theology, just as there are with Christian theology. Mormon theology does make the Most High God seem too close to humankind, but the doctrine of the incarnation of Christ is, at the same time, equally unbelievable or nonsensical. Just my view.