NBC news story on Hunter Biden

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K Graham
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by K Graham »

honorentheos wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:16 pm
I just reposted comments from over two years ago. You are no closer to being informed on the issue today than you were then, and large parts of what you imagine are people conceding is you barely now acknowledging points made then.
One thing's for certain, and that is that Markk's mind is easily molded by "documentary" styled propaganda.

It must suck for him to have to keep flipping through that video to find ways to undermine the solid points you keep making, only to end up having to repeat the same dumb crap over and over.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
Markk
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by Markk »

Honor wrote’’’
What he said was the person they (meaning Ukraine) put in place of Shokin, speaking of Lutsenko, was, "solid at the time". Full context of the quote:
Ooookay…so Biden believed this corrupt Kleptocrate and corrupt individual…was only “solid at the time”... When was that time up? How does one justify that decision. Was he solid at the time when he obviously made deals with MZ reducing his tax bill by 33 million dollars? Remember you conceded that Lutsenko and those that Biden strong armed to fire Shokin were corrupt Kleptocrates.

What was Biden’s plan if this was just some temporary choice…who was the long term choice and when did he take office and who was he appointed by?
Markk
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by Markk »

honorentheos wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:09 pm
Markk wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:37 pm

Come on Honor…at best Joe Biden is a complete moron and should be “fired” for being completely clueless…or he was well aware of what he was doing in getting Shokin fired, protecting Burisma/MZ and by default his son.
Neither is accurate. Shokin's corruption was not something Biden talked the world into believing. Your position on that is untenable and only supported by scoundrels or Russian propoganda. If there is a difference.

Biden didn't pick Lutsenko as Shokin's replacement, the administration accepted it when decided on by the government of Ukraine (you know, sovereign nations being what they are and all...) with the view his past behavior indicated he was a "solid guy at the time" to use the full phrase and not cherry pick.

You are still making arguments you made at the very beginning of the discussion the last time we went through this. That's telling given what more is now known which should have caused movement.
I did not say he picked him Honor, I said he approved the pick, in that the aid was given. remember you conceded these were all very corrupt individuals Honor.

You don’t see the irony is this. He had Shokin fired, who had a better track record fighting corruption than the two previous IG’s, probably even combining together…for a ex convict who was not an attorney, and who obviously made deals with MZ…and is worth millions on a IG’s salary.
honorentheos
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by honorentheos »

Markk wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:41 pm
Honor wrote’’’
What he said was the person they (meaning Ukraine) put in place of Shokin, speaking of Lutsenko, was, "solid at the time". Full context of the quote:
Ooookay…so Biden believed this corrupt Kleptocrate and corrupt individual…was only “solid at the time”... When was that time up? How does one justify that decision. Was he solid at the time when he obviously made deals with MZ reducing his tax bill by 33 million dollars? Remember you conceded that Lutsenko and those that Biden strong armed to fire Shokin were corrupt Kleptocrates.

What was Biden’s plan if this was just some temporary choice…who was the long term choice and when did he take office and who was he appointed by?
Your post actually generated a question that I don't think we've discussed before between the original and this necromancy thread. That being, how do you believe the US should engage with a sovereign nation when it comes to dealing with their elected officials and appointees when the US views either unfavorably? Genuinely curious.
Markk
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by Markk »

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:34 am
Markk wrote:
Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:41 pm


Ooookay…so Biden believed this corrupt Kleptocrate and corrupt individual…was only “solid at the time”... When was that time up? How does one justify that decision. Was he solid at the time when he obviously made deals with MZ reducing his tax bill by 33 million dollars? Remember you conceded that Lutsenko and those that Biden strong armed to fire Shokin were corrupt Kleptocrates.

What was Biden’s plan if this was just some temporary choice…who was the long term choice and when did he take office and who was he appointed by?
Your post actually generated a question that I don't think we've discussed before between the original and this necromancy thread. That being, how do you believe the US should engage with a sovereign nation when it comes to dealing with their elected officials and appointees when the US views either unfavorably? Genuinely curious.
It’s a dirty business, and hard decisions have to be made I believe if the American public knew how dirty it is, it would be appalled. That is why the quid quo pro thing is a huge straw-man (even if wrong)…for either Trump or Biden…Washington operates on a quid quo pro basis. Scratch my back and I’ll scratch your back. We have professionals that deal with that daily in Washington, they are called Lobbyists. Heck,congressmen and women do it all the time in bills, they won’t vote for the bill unless they get something earmarked for them .

Disinformation is rampant in these dirty foreign affairs, and in war…it takes years to get to the truth….which I think we are getting closer to the truth about the Biden’s.

But anyways, if the choice was only temporary ( for the time) as you claimed…how come Lutsenko served until the new president VZ, let him go?

I believe my point stands that Biden had a okay IG forced out, and put into office a very very corrupt IG, with absolutly no experience in law, only corruption.
honorentheos
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by honorentheos »

Thanks far answering. I'll come back to it later. For now, perhaps you'll consider that the US Senate held similar views on the removal of Shokin, further confirming that Biden was not orchestrating his removal...unless he is an unprecedented genius I suppose. I don't believe either of us think that is true, though.

Anyway -

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/in my opinion/medi ... vasion.pdf

Senator Cardin: I again call on Ukraine’s leaders to show courage and resolve in

pursuing progress against corrupt individuals who wield influence in the country. I believe the United States can play a role as well as exposing and pursuing corrupt Ukrainian officials who use U.S. financial institutions to direct their ill-gotten gains.

An important step was taken when General Prosecutor Shokin resigned earlier this year, but parliament must now accept his resignation. And this must be followed by a commitment to take concrete steps towards judicial reform, civil service reform, law enforcement reform, and a transparent and open privatization process of Ukraine’s 1,800 state-owned enterprises.

JOHN E. HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE, DIRECTOR, DINU PATRICIU EURASIA
CENTER, ATLANTIC COUNCIL, WASHINGTON, DC

Early this year, three reform ministers resigned quietly. Then
Economic Minister Abramavicius resigned complaining that he could not do his job because of corruption, and that corruption went all the way to the top. Reformers in civil society spoke up for Mr. Abramavicius, so did the U.S., the EU, and the IMF. In response, President Poroshenko called for the removal of Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin, and the Rada passed reform legislation that had been blocked for months.

AMBASSADOR (RET.) JOHN E. HERBST
They pointed to the failure of the government—through the
Procurator General— to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption. They complained, too, that Procurator General Viktor Shokin
was a compromised figure who had served as Procurator General in the Yanukovych
administration.
By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin’s removal as the start of an overall reform of the Procurator General’s Office. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv; but Mr. Shokin remained in place.
Early in the new year Mr. Pavlenko, the Minister of Agriculture; Mr. Pyvovarskiy,
the Minister of Infrastructure; and Mr. Kvitashvili, the Minister of Health, quietly
resigned. This had little impact on the reform debate. But in early February Mr.
Abromavicius, the Minister of Economy, resigned and complained that he was tired
of fighting corruption. He said that the immediate cause for his decision was an effort by close presidential aide Ihor Kononenko to install a crony as Deputy Minister
of Economy with responsibility for the newly-cleaned up Naftogaz. Mr. Kononenko
denied the charge, but civil society and other reformers took Mr. Abromavicius’ side.
So did the West. The United States, the EU, and eight Ambassadors of other
countries expressed regret at Mr. Abromavicius’ resignation. So did IMF Managing
Director Christine Lagarde. In response to the controversy, Mr. Poroshenko called
for Mr. Shokin’s removal and for an investigation

...

U.S. Policy: Plus and Minus
Washington’s approach to reform and the Ukrainian economy is also mixed. On the plus side, the Obama administration understands well the nuances of Ukrainian reform. It recognizes that the government in Kyiv needs outside encouragement and, at times, tough love, to make the right reform choice. Mr. Biden, in particular, has devoted a great deal of time to promoting reform in Ukraine, and he has not been reluctant to tell Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Yatsenyuk when they have shirked the hard choices that need to be made. This was evident in the conversations regarding Mr. Shokin and the Office of the Procurator General.

...

The CHAIRMAN. No. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Obviously, the title of this hearing has been more about reforms
in Ukraine and concerns that Europe may utilize the lack of some
of those reforms occurring as a reason to loosen sanctions, which
we do not want to see happen.
But could you follow up, Mr. Herbst? It appears that in your tes-timony—and I want to ask Mr. Brzezinski the same thing—that
right now you feel that our push towards Ukraine’s reformation
process is not balanced, and that we are not doing enough on the
other side of the equation to push Russia. Is that correct?
Ambassador HERBST Absolutely. Our military support for
Ukraine has been growing, and it is much better today than it was
a year ago, but it is still inadequate. And we still worry far too
much about, quote/unquote, annoying or provoking Russia than
about defending our interests in Ukraine because Mr. Putin is vulnerable in Ukraine. His people do not want the Russian army
fighting in Ukraine. And there are thousands and thousands of
Russian soldiers right now.
The lethal defensive equipment we would provide would make it
much more painful for Russia to commit its next offensive action.
And while I am not expecting a major offensive, the Russians are
grabbing land every week or trying to grab land every week. They
have taken at least 700 additional square kilometers under the
Minsk ceasefires. We want to make it much more painful for them
to do that.
Markk
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by Markk »

This was in 2015…and Hunter Biden was already on board with Burisma…your paste reads that JB was publically calling for Shokin’s removal. This in no way shows what you claim. In fact if you put the dates together, it shows that JB was after Shokin early on . Keep in mind Shokin was only in office for 13 months…

There is a different side to the Shokin story that, right or wrong, shows the different side to this. This is documented in a later series of the documentary. Again I am not sure what you are afraid in seeing the documentary, checking out the references provided for…and then comment knowing both sides of the story. There are interviews from Shokin that, again true or not, show the other side of the story.

You forgot to paste this part of the senate document….

Washington's approach to reform and the Ukrainian economy is also
mixed. On the plus side, the Obama administration understands well the
nuances of Ukrainian reform. It recognizes that the government in Kyiv
needs outside encouragement and, at times, tough love, to make the
right reform choice. Mr. Biden, in particular, has devoted a great deal
of time to promoting reform in Ukraine, and he has not been reluctant
to tell Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Yatsenyuk when they have shirked the
hard choices that need to be made.
This was evident in the
conversations regarding Mr. Shokin and the Office of the Procurator
General.

Remember he was only in office for just over a year, and Hunter was already at Burisma…and the other side of the story is that Shokin was going to go after Burisma.
K Graham
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by K Graham »

Still no evidence Shokin was "going after Burisma." Markk's argument gets weaker and weaker, now having to refer to "the other side" as if that means evidence.

Meanwhile, the Saudis just gave $2 billion to Jared Kushner. Can't wait for Markk's outrage over that. Especially given that Kushner has zero experience as a fund manager, but gets $2 billion from a foreign country simply because he married Trump's daughter. Cashing in on the family name, and unlike the innuendo driven connections between Ukraine and Joe, the financial deals between Trump and the Saudis have long been established.

So. We'll wait for the outrage. Thus far Markk's preferred news outlets haven't even mentioned this story.
Last edited by K Graham on Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
honorentheos
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by honorentheos »

Markk wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 12:07 pm
This was in 2015…and Hunter Biden was already on board with Burisma…your paste reads that JB was publically calling for Shokin’s removal. This in no way shows what you claim. In fact if you put the dates together, it shows that JB was after Shokin early on . Keep in mind Shokin was only in office for 13 months…

There is a different side to the Shokin story that, right or wrong, shows the different side to this. This is documented in a later series of the documentary. Again I am not sure what you are afraid in seeing the documentary, checking out the references provided for…and then comment knowing both sides of the story. There are interviews from Shokin that, again true or not, show the other side of the story.

You forgot to paste this part of the senate document….

Washington's approach to reform and the Ukrainian economy is also
mixed. On the plus side, the Obama administration understands well the
nuances of Ukrainian reform. It recognizes that the government in Kyiv
needs outside encouragement and, at times, tough love, to make the
right reform choice. Mr. Biden, in particular, has devoted a great deal
of time to promoting reform in Ukraine, and he has not been reluctant
to tell Mr. Poroshenko and Mr. Yatsenyuk when they have shirked the
hard choices that need to be made.
This was evident in the
conversations regarding Mr. Shokin and the Office of the Procurator
General.

Remember he was only in office for just over a year, and Hunter was already at Burisma…and the other side of the story is that Shokin was going to go after Burisma.
So... unprecedented genius it is, huh? Manipulating seasoned diplomates, bankers, magistrates and investigators? Capable of inciting riot in Ukraine with such finesse the CIA must be kicking themselves he failed to join them? Wow. Lucky he's our President.
honorentheos
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Re: NBC news story on Hunter Biden

Post by honorentheos »

Also I did quote the part you "added". Even took a moment to format the PDF.

This doesn't speak well of your reading of other people's posts. Can't imagine it does much for your ability to understand arguments being made regarding your preconceived beliefs, either.
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