Tyler Livingston--Former FAIR Stalwart--Has Left the Church

[The Stig]

I can confirm ttribe has left church activity and resigned his membership.

What?!?!

That’s amazing. Do you know if he has an exit story? I thought ttribe was an Englund/MG type who was going to die a Morm despite the obvious fraud that it is.

- Doc

Well, I am ttribe. I posted my exit story on this board when I first joined under this moniker. I have no idea where it went, but I will tell you it was very, very ugly. My life was completely turned upside down by my loss of faith at the end of 2010.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What?!?!

That’s amazing. Do you know if he has an exit story? I thought ttribe was an Englund/MG type who was going to die a Morm despite the obvious fraud that it is.

- Doc

Well, I am ttribe. I posted my exit story on this board when I first joined under this moniker. I have no idea where it went, but I will tell you it was very, very ugly. My life was completely turned upside down by my loss of faith at the end of 2010.

Oh, wow. It was probably lost when the old board’s code was corrupted. I hope your life recovered and you’re in a good place - a lot of us went through Hell and back when we followed our conscience, too.

- Doc

[The Stig]

Well, I am ttribe. I posted my exit story on this board when I first joined under this moniker. I have no idea where it went, but I will tell you it was very, very ugly. My life was completely turned upside down by my loss of faith at the end of 2010.

Oh, wow. It was probably lost when the old board’s code was corrupted. I hope your life recovered and you’re in a good place - a lot of us went through Hell and back when we followed our conscience, too.

- Doc

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate it. It's been a long road.

[Fence Sitter]

Nice to see you here Tribe and connect the names.
I have enjoyed your posts on the other board.

[The Stig]

Nice to see you here Tribe and connect the names.
I have enjoyed your posts on the other board.

Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.

[wenglund]

I found this happening with me quite often as an apologists, and even to some degree now as a "gatherer." I would begin posting with joy in my heart and a desire to respectfully interact with those I disagree with, and often by the end of the session I would feeling sick in my heart at what I had done and what had been done to me, and the profound waste and hurt of it all--not to mention my mind reeling from the bizarreness of what all had happened to no real good. And, no matter how hard I tried each time to have things go otherwise, eventually things kept ending up the same. So, I gave it up. I have had the same experience discussing politics online. And, while I am inclined to assume personal responsibility for my uncivil behavior, I believe the tribalism of many, though not all, apologists and critics alike, plays a contributing role.

Thanks, Wade Englund

Thanks for your candid response, Wade. I respect your efforts to live your religion in a way that is in keeping with your personal values. I also note and appreciate the independent and creative thinking you apply to your spiritual life.

That means a lot to me. I hope you know that I feel the same in return. All the best.

Thanks, Wade Englund

[Kishkumen]

That means a lot to me. I hope you know that I feel the same in return. All the best.

Thanks, Wade Englund

Much appreciated, Wade. All the best to you too!

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Nice to see you here Tribe and connect the names.
I have enjoyed your posts on the other board.

I would always read the posts from you, Consig and Stem over at MAD. You guys were always insightful, clever and fun to read. I'm glad you are all posting over here now.

[Doctor Scratch]

However, since I continue to be an avid consumer of Interpreter Foundation material, and I actively follow Daniel Peterson on Facebook pretty much on a daily basis, I see very little in the way of apologetics, and considerable amounts of "gathering" material.

Wow….you read his Facebook page every day? You must be quite a fan. And that’s interesting that you don’t see any of his efforts as “apologetic.” (And this includes “Interpreter,” too, I guess? I can’t help but wonder what you thought of the articles on, e.g., the Transhumanists, or Jonathan Neville, or Gee’s piece on the JSPP.)

In fact, if memory serves me correctly, Dr. Peterson left off participating on discussion boards such as this prior to me.

He simply moved to a different venue where he could utilize censorship to his advantage. The nature of what he did on the boards didn’t really change.

So, as usual, you are incorrect in most every way, particularly in regards to Dr. Peterson as well as he and I having supposedly gone our separate way.

I was referring more specifically to Mopologetics, and especially to FAIR Mormon. Once upon a time, you attended a FAIR Conference, no? Do you still go to them, or do you have any meaningful involvement with FAIR?

[wenglund]

So as far as I can tell "gathering" is not apologetics because ii doesn't presume a rational basis for discussion. At least that's what I gather in attempted conversations with Wade. If so, i too applaud such a perspective. There is no rational convincing of faith. It is anti-intellectual and must best work from that perspective. There is no rational argument for God or a spirit world. one must presuppose such things. And if one is questioning those very things, there is no progress to make rationally speaking. Any sense of being reasonable only fits subjectively...once one assumes reason only fits within a spirit realm. Or something of that sort.

I'd say such a perspective absolutely disrespect's human reason and all that has come from human effort to be reasonable. But if God truly is most important to someone, then that appears to be exactly what God wants. Jesus, as they say, didn't come to bring peace but a sword. God's understanding far exceeds man's. And, of course, we as humans can't possibly understand God's ways, for they aren't our ways....and all of that. Pretending that a believer can cross the chasm and provide reason for their beliefs is an enormous waste of time...except human's often aren't rational characters. So unreason often convinces us. But then that might just take us into the lying for the Lord arena.

Ah well...I see the freshness of Wade's move here. It's understandable...particularly if the fruits of apologetics continues to be completely void o producing anything.

You almost got it. There is, in fact, a lack of rational basis for discussion. However, it isn't because there is no rational basis for "gathering." Rather, it is because, between gatherers and critics, there is little to no overlap in acceptable evidence, methods of testing, purposes, etc.. And, absent sufficient overlap, then rational discussions aren't viable. There is no rational basis for non-viable discussions. Quite the contrary.

This isn't for lack of respect for "human reason" or the kind of evidence, methods, purposes, etc. used by the critics. Indeed, many gatherers have flourished in secular academics and various occupations: doctors, lawyers, pilots, linguist, teachers, scientist, economist, philosophers, etc. They could not flourish in these fields except they were to respect and even firmly believe in such evidence, methods, purposes, etc.

And, while these gatherers may draw from their secular professions to illuminate principles and practices in their religious gathering endeavors (Elder Uchtdorf often employees airline metaphors in his conference talks), they don't use their secular methods in bringing people to Christ. Gatherers who are cardiologist, don't perform open heart surgery in order to affect a change from a carnal and sensual and devilish heart to a spiritual heart.

Thanks, Wade Englund