Tyler Livingston--Former FAIR Stalwart--Has Left the Church

[dastardly stem]

There are plenty of intelligent and accomplished people who have provided convincing sounding reasons to believe. I would suggest the reasons they give, as Wade seems to be saying, aren't really all that reasonable at all. They convince not because the arguments are valid and sound. They convince because of their influence as intelligent people and appeals to emotion. Of course I could be wrong in any particular case, but from what I've seen that seems to be true, generally. So many believers read and study to get a good feel for information in order to, often, use that knowledge to convince people. But it's not the knowledge. Its the appearance of knowledge. It's not the reason...its the appearance of reason that is so convincing.

That's my take on it, and if I'm wrong all it would really take, I'd think, is for someone to provide a reasonable case for their religious claims. I appreciate the Wade realizes he can't do that and holds the position no one can. I think that's about right. One first has to hold many presuppositions for religious arguments to be reasonable. But all the premises might just be too problematic in the end to convince anyone reasonably. One first has to accept a whole other world to find reason to believe.

[Moksha]

Rather, it is because, between gatherers and critics, there is little to no overlap in acceptable evidence, methods of testing, purposes, etc.. And, absent sufficient overlap, then rational discussions aren't viable.
Thanks, Wade Englund

Rather than call them critics, let's call them Hunters and help reestablish their relationship with Gatherers. Together we can route those potato-growing apologists.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

There are plenty of intelligent and accomplished people who have provided convincing sounding reasons to believe. I would suggest the reasons they give, as Wade seems to be saying, aren't really all that reasonable at all. They convince not because the arguments are valid and sound. They convince because of their influence as intelligent people and appeals to emotion. Of course I could be wrong in any particular case, but from what I've seen that seems to be true, generally. So many believers read and study to get a good feel for information in order to, often, use that knowledge to convince people. But it's not the knowledge. Its the appearance of knowledge. It's not the reason...its the appearance of reason that is so convincing.

That's my take on it, and if I'm wrong all it would really take, I'd think, is for someone to provide a reasonable case for their religious claims. I appreciate the Wade realizes he can't do that and holds the position no one can. I think that's about right. One first has to hold many presuppositions for religious arguments to be reasonable. But all the premises might just be too problematic in the end to convince anyone reasonably. One first has to accept a whole other world to find reason to believe.

Who woulda guessed sophism really only appeals to sophists.

- Doc

[Philo Sofee]

I 2nd this. Good to see you active and posting a bit and mixing it up Wade. Always good exercise for my own brain cells when I do so - GRIN! And heavens knows, at this age, I need it...

Likewise. You have been, and still are, one of my favorite people. Seeing your jovial personality, keen intellect, and well intentioned spirit on a recent podcast, is what drew me back here. You are a genuinely a loveable guy. My only regret is that we don't have you fighting the good fight on our side. All the best.

Thanks, Wade Englund

There are no sides, only experience...

[wenglund]

Likewise. You have been, and still are, one of my favorite people. Seeing your jovial personality, keen intellect, and well intentioned spirit on a recent podcast, is what drew me back here. You are a genuinely a loveable guy. My only regret is that we don't have you fighting the good fight on our side. All the best.

Thanks, Wade Englund

There are no sides, only experience...

Great. Either way, I have been touched and blessed by the kind interactions between friends (I will continue to consider you and Kish as friends). And, on this positive note, I will probably leave the board. I came here to see how you all were faring and to briefly propose a different way of looking at things. I have done that.

And, not wanting to immerse myself further in counterproductive behavior than I already have, I wish you all (everyone posting here) the very happiest of life experiences.

Thanks, Wade Englund

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Wade,

I know I speak for many when I say you are welcome here anytime.

May the road rise with you, my friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb7Li2Vs24Y

[Marcus]

I came here to see how you all were faring and to briefly propose a different way of looking at things. I have done that.

And, not wanting to immerse myself further in counterproductive behavior than I already have, I wish you all (everyone posting here) the very happiest of life experiences...

Thank you, Wade. As one of the all, i am absolutely positive you wish everyone posting here the "very happiest of life experiences." Absolutely. Your language in the sentence above makes that clear. Although i occasionally wonder how it is that those using such blatant language think its true intent is not seen by others. But, to each his own.

I also wish you the "very happiest of life experiences."

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

And, not wanting to immerse myself further in counterproductive behavior than I already have, I wish you all (everyone posting here) the very happiest of life experiences.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... e?lang=eng

“And in order to obtain the highest [degree of glory], a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“And if he does not, he cannot obtain it”

You better get cookin’, brother. Time is a slippn’ away, Wade Englund.

- Doc

[Shulem]

You better get cookin’, brother. Time is a slippn’ away, Wade Englund.

- Doc

Yeah, Wade failed to measure up to God's expectations and through his mortal weaknesses has fallen short of the glory of God. He will not receive or achieve exaltation. He's going into the Celestial Kingdom as a servant. The woman that was meant for him has been given to another man. (Sounds like a Led Zeppelin song)

Anyway, brother Wade, you're welcome to come down from the lower realm of the Celestial Kingdom to visit us poor sinners in Telestial where we will be having our joy doing whatever we want.

[dastardly stem]

Great. Either way, I have been touched and blessed by the kind interactions between friends (I will continue to consider you and Kish as friends). And, on this positive note, I will probably leave the board. I came here to see how you all were faring and to briefly propose a different way of looking at things. I have done that.

And, not wanting to immerse myself further in counterproductive behavior than I already have, I wish you all (everyone posting here) the very happiest of life experiences.

Thanks, Wade Englund

Sad to see you go. Differing ideas and positions are what make these types of conversations most useful. I too wish you the very happiest of life experiences.