Book of Mormon Geography

[Zosimus]

This evidence serves to show how Joseph Smith was naturally inclined to include pearls in his story because pearls were naturally had upon the rivers that flowed in America proper. We can only guess if Smith thought pearls were also found around Delmarva and the coast. But we know that pearls were found in the rivers in great abundance and this serves to include the Heartland as a natural candidate for Book of Mormon geography.

HA!!! A Pearl of GREAT Price found for the Book of Mormon!

As an alternative perspective in support of an Asian setting, the original pearl of great price comes from a story that was embedded within the Acts of Thomas. The early Christians, at least those within the flourishing Nestorian and Church of the East traditions, were well known for their trade of pearls. The Pearl of Great Price was their Holy Grail and Kedah was one of their primary trading ports (source):



The author of the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price was referring to the pearl of great price within the traditions of the Church of the East, across Asia. Mormons even get a mention in the entry of the Hymn of the Pearl in Wikipedia:

"The hymn has been preserved and especially treasured in Manichaeism – a version of it appears as part of a Coptic Manichaean psalm book and is called the Psalms of Thomas. The Hymn of the Pearl has also been admired by Orthodox Christian thinkers and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)."

[Shulem]

As an alternative perspective in support of an Asian setting...

It seems there are so many connections that can be made in so many things pertaining to the past as history is woven together in one grand tapestry. The ripple effect of everything we do in affecting others is a real principle because we are all in this together from times past, present, and future.

[Shulem]

From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to the Angel Moroni

Interesting points:

• The Comoro Islands were especially attractive to pirates because of their location at the northern end of the Mozambique Channel between the East Coast of Africa and Madagascar.

• Captain Kidd himself would eventually make his way there

• The largest of the Comoro Islands, Grand Comoro, was less interesting to pirates than it later would be to Mormons. For a long time it was ruled by twelve Sultans.

• Iconi and Moroni

• Kidd's treasure became the most vigorously sought pirate's prize of all. For Mormons, the fact that the pirate was hanged for crimes allegedly committed in the vicinity of Moroni on Grand Comoro is significant because the hunt for his treasure came to play a part in the story of Moroni on Comorah.

• Particularly in connection with Kidd's treasure, stories of murdered
  guardian ghosts—the very kind Moroni started out as—were especially prevalent.

• One hundred fifty miles upriver from the mouth of the Connecticut River, there is an island nicknamed "Kidd's Island" because of a local tradition that Captain Kidd and Miles Braddish had buried treasure

• all along the shore, lie buried the inexhaustible treasures of Captain Kidd, each deposit guarded, by the ghost of a murdered man

• Gow uses a divining rod but also a seer stone, which he identifies as the "same thin, yellow, speckled kind of stone I used when I said to discovered the pot of money on Cape Cod that they supposed Kidd buried there." Gow uses the stone "with his face protruded into his hat, which he held in his lap, seemingly gazing at something at the bottom."

• But Joseph's interest in stories about Captain Kidd did not end with boyhood. Both he and other members of his family were regularly engaged in the pursuit of Kidd's lost treasure. J. H. Kennedy informs us that even before the Smiths settled in western New York, Joseph Smith, Sr., had been "at times engaged in hunting for Captain Kidd's buried treasure" in Vermont.

• Early Danish convert John Ahmanson, reports that "Joseph Smith found his [plates] while he was digging for treasure which was supposed to have been buried by the notorious buccaneer Captain Kidd in the western part of New York State."

• Jo Smith claimed to be a seer. He had a very clear stone about the size and shape of a duck's egg, and claimed that he could see lost or hidden things through it. He said he saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River. . .and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through his peep-stone

• In another affidavit, Ketchel E. Bell similarly recalls having been told by her brother Milo in 1885 that "he knew Jo Smith when he was digging near the Susquehanna River for Capt Kidd's Money. Jo had a peep-stone through which he claimed to see hidden or buried treasures."

• The angel Moroni began his career as a type of murdered treasure-guardian ghost particularly (though not exclusively) associated with the story of Captain Kidd's treasure. Smith must have learned of the motif while helping his father dig for Kidd's treasure and while studying Kidd's life and lore as a boy.

[Shulem]

...which led into the land northward up the Susquehanna river in search of Captain Kidd’s treasures.

Location, location, location!

[Zosimus]

Location, location, location!

Yes location and timing.

Joseph Smith, Sr., had been "at times engaged in hunting for Captain Kidd's buried treasure" in Vermont.

Captain Kidd brought this treasure to Vermont from where, and when did it arrive there?

he and other members of his family were regularly engaged in the pursuit of Kidd's lost treasure.

Where did Joseph and his family think the lost treasure came from? When did Kidd bury it?

Early Danish convert John Ahmanson, reports that "Joseph Smith found his [plates] while he was digging for treasure which was supposed to have been buried by the notorious buccaneer Captain Kidd in the western part of New York State."

This is interesting. Smith was digging for Kidd's treasure when he found the gold plates? If the notorious buccaneer Captain Kidd had buried them, I wonder if Joseph had originally believed that the plates were carried to New York on the Kedah Merchant.

He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through his peep-stone

This wouldn't have been reformed Egyptian. What language was Joseph translating? Where was it from and when was it cut into the rocks?

In another affidavit, Ketchel E. Bell similarly recalls having been told by her brother Milo in 1885 that "he knew Jo Smith when he was digging near the Susquehanna River for Capt Kidd's Money. Jo had a peep-stone through which he claimed to see hidden or buried treasures."

Really? Jo was peeping at Kidd's treasure through his peep-stone? The same peep-stone that translated the Book of Mormon?

The angel Moroni began his career as a type of murdered treasure-guardian ghost particularly (though not exclusively) associated with the story of Captain Kidd's treasure. Smith must have learned of the motif while helping his father dig for Kidd's treasure and while studying Kidd's life and lore as a boy.

Where was the murdered treasure-guardian ghost from? How and when did this Moroni, and the treasure he was guarding, get there?

The treasure the Smiths had been digging for, and the guardian charged with protecting it, came from Kedah on the Kedah Merchant, about 100 years earlier. In Joseph's mind, before the story fully took shape after 1830, the treasure of Hill Cumorah had been enchanted by a Malay pirate named Maroni in the late 17th century. The 5th century Hebrew-American prophet named Moroni came later on in the plot.

How do we know which story came first? Joseph Smith Sr. told Fayette Lapham ~1830 that "Soon after joining the Church, [Joseph] had a very singular dream ... in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody. And the man said to him that there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place; and that he had now arrived for it to be brought to light, for the benefit of the world at large; and, if he would strictly follow his directions, he would direct him to the place where it was deposited."

In my opinion, Joseph had Kedah in mind as the location all the way up until he rewrote the Book of Lehi. At that point he realized there wasn't much of a market in New England for a book about Jews in Kedah, so he changed the landing spot to the Americas. This shift in location is why the geography of the Book of Mormon matches Kedah almost perfectly.(land northward, land of zarahemla, land southward), and does not align with any region in the Americas. It's also why anachronisms like elephants, silk, cows, iron, horses, swords and chariots are in the Book of Mormon. These wouldn't have been anachronisms to an author that was writing about a location that had elephants, silk, cows, iron, horses, swords and chariots.

Most importantly, the name of the ghost wasn't taken from the capital of the Comoros Islands. The murdered guardian of the treasure Joseph was digging for has the exact same name (Joseph also spelled it Maroni) as the founder of Kedah.

[Shulem]

Yes location and timing.

Sometimes they are mutually exclusive and sometimes they are not.

Captain Kidd brought this treasure to Vermont from where, and when did it arrive there?

The imaginary treasure never arrived.

Where did Joseph and his family think the lost treasure came from? When did Kidd bury it?

Rhetorical or not, the answer is whatever was thought.

This is interesting. Smith was digging for Kidd's treasure when he found the gold plates? If the notorious buccaneer Captain Kidd had buried them, I wonder if Joseph had originally believed that the plates were carried to New York on the Kedah Merchant.

It’s entirely possible.

This wouldn't have been reformed Egyptian. What language was Joseph translating? Where was it from and when was it cut into the rocks?

Who can say?

Really? Jo was peeping at Kidd's treasure through his peep-stone? The same peep-stone that translated the Book of Mormon?

Who can say?

Where was the murdered treasure-guardian ghost from? How and when did this Moroni, and the treasure he was guarding, get there?

Well, seeing Kidd had never been to Malaysia, he couldn’t have brought them from there. It’s hard to say when and where his treasures may have come from. Rumor and imagination will widen the scope considerably.

The treasure the Smiths had been digging for, and the guardian charged with protecting it, came from Kedah on the Kedah Merchant, about 100 years earlier. In Joseph's mind, before the story fully took shape after 1830, the treasure of Hill Cumorah had been enchanted by a Malay pirate named Maroni in the late 17th century. The 5th century Hebrew-American prophet named Moroni came later on in the plot.

How about Comoros Island and Moroni? Kidd had been there but not Malaysia. It seems like the perfect stop before heading to the Susquehanna River. If it’s good enough for Captain Kidd then it’s good enough for Joseph Smith. You know the drill, Zosimus.




more later...

[Shulem]

How do we know which story came first? Joseph Smith Sr. told Fayette Lapham ~1830 that "Soon after joining the Church, [Joseph] had a very singular dream ... in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody. And the man said to him that there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place; and that he had now arrived for it to be brought to light, for the benefit of the world at large; and, if he would strictly follow his directions, he would direct him to the place where it was deposited."

Well, who can say what exactly was on Joseph’s mind? We know he read the Arabian Nights and loved stories about Captain Kidd. There just is no way of knowing how all that data was processed and played out in his mind.

In my opinion, Joseph had Kedah in mind as the location all the way up until he rewrote the Book of Lehi.

That’s possible. But no matter what, the object of the game was to get the plates to New York.

At that point he realized there wasn't much of a market in New England for a book about Jews in Kedah, so he changed the landing spot to the Americas.

That’s possible. And what better place than Delmarva which is surrounded by seas having a narrow neck to the north which takes only a day to cross?

This shift in location is why the geography of the Book of Mormon matches Kedah almost perfectly.(land northward, land of zarahemla, land southward), and does not align with any region in the Americas.

I understand this is your opinion and how you view it. From what I have processed from your presentations, I do not share your opinion but do see some valuable data and ideas that can be incorporated into my theories.

It's also why anachronisms like elephants, silk, cows, iron, horses, swords and chariots are in the Book of Mormon. These wouldn't have been anachronisms to an author that was writing about a location that had elephants, silk, cows, iron, horses, swords and chariots.

Let’s keep in mind that our young author was also ignorant about a great many things and a world traveler or scientist, he was not. He was not a typical author. He was, however, an expert when it came to the Bible. Joseph Smith was self-published! Nobody would have commissioned him to write a book on ancient history. He had no credentials.

Most importantly, the name of the ghost wasn't taken from the capital of the Comoros Islands. The murdered guardian of the treasure Joseph was digging for has the exact same name (Joseph also spelled it Maroni) as the founder of Kedah.

Yeah, that is one way to spell it.

[Zosimus]

The imaginary treasure never arrived.

Rhetorical or not, the answer is whatever was thought.

We know now that there was no buried treasure from the Kedah Merchant in Vermont, Palmyra or along the Susquehanna. After departing the Comoros, the Kedah Merchant was scuttled off Catalina Island in the Dominican Republic while Kidd continued on to New York.

But back in the 1820s, there were plenty that believed Kidd had sailed the Kedah Merchant all the way to New England with the loot. The Smiths certainly seemed to believe this.

It’s hard to say when and where his treasures may have come from. Rumor and imagination will widen the scope considerably.

Again, we here in 2023 know where the loot came from. Kidd had captured the Kedah Merchant off Cochin India on its return voyage from Bengal where it had sold its cargo and was returning with "1200 Bayles of Muslins raw silk and Callicoes of all sorts fourteen hundred baggs of brown Sugars 84 Bayles of raw silke and eighty Chests of Opium besides iron and other goods," including diamonds, rubies, gold bars, and so on." Much of this would have been goods from ports like Kedah, along the Malay Peninsula. This is why the boat was named the Kedah Merchant.

But all this would not have been known to the Smiths. Their information would have been limited to popular accounts and rumors spread by treasure hunters. Things like so-and-so had a vision of Captain Kidd sailing the Kedah Merchant up the Hudson or Luman the Juggler saw some of Kidd's gold pots through his peep stone. Like the other tales of murdered treasure guardians that popped up across New England, none of it was factual.

How about Comoros Island and Moroni? Kidd had been there but not Malaysia. It seems like the perfect stop before heading to the Susquehanna River.

Kidd wouldn't need to go to Kedah. His boat was called the Kedah merchant. That'd be enough for any New England treasure digger to look up maps to find where the treasure on the Kedah Merchant had come from.

I served my mission in the mission that included the Comoros Islands. Although there were no missionaries there in the Comoros, I taught several migrants from the Comoros including some from the capital of Moroni. We always had a chuckle when we revealed those names in the Book of Mormon. But everyone that knows the history of the region understands that the name Comoro comes from the Arabic name given to islands throughout the Indian Ocean including Madagascar and the Malay Peninsula. The name originated in the Malay Peninsula which was originally called Komor-Malay (source) after the Komr people from the Malay Peninsula. The Komr were the first to settle in the Comoros Islands. That's where the name comes from. Its all explained in Arabic geographies that would have been of keen interest to anybody researching Egyptology in the 1820s. In those texts, the mythical mountain in Egypt at the source of the River Nile and hermetic tradition was called Komorriyya, after the Komr people from Komor-Malay. This in my opinion is the most like namesake of the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon.

We've been over the word Maroni/Moroni a few times.

[Zosimus]

That’s possible. But no matter what, the object of the game was to get the plates to New York.

OK, to get the plates to New York.

Question for you. When Joseph Smith Sr. spoke to Fayette Lapham in 1829/1830 of a very large (and bloody) man in an ancient suit that had been guarding the treasure and the plates that Joseph Smith Jr. was going to reveal to the world, he had in his mind:

[ ] The resurrected body of a 5th century Jewish prophet that had buried the record of ancient Americans.
[ ] The ghost of a man that had been murdered to protect a treasure that had been buried in the 17th century.
[ ] Something else

[Shulem]

That’s possible. But no matter what, the object of the game was to get the plates to New York.

OK, to get the plates to New York.

Question for you. When Joseph Smith Sr. spoke to Fayette Lapham in 1829/1830 of a very large (and bloody) man in an ancient suit that had been guarding the treasure and the plates that Joseph Smith Jr. was going to reveal to the world, he had in his mind:

[ ] The resurrected body of a 5th century Jewish prophet that had buried the record of ancient Americans.
[ ] The ghost of a man that had been murdered to protect a treasure that had been buried in the 17th century.
[ ] Something else

As you know, Smith first claimed to receive the plates in 1827 and began translating with Harris in the spring of 1828. This of course precedes the telling of an account of a Smith Sr./Lapham encounter of more than 40 years as attested by Vogel who is far more qualified than me to answer your questions. Previous to that encounter, the Book of Lehi (116 pages) had already been written and lost as explained in the Preface of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon. Translation resumed with Cowdery as scribe and completed by June of 1829. So, everything *in* the text of the Book of Mormon had already been expressed and manifested prior to that event. In my view the text within that very book supersedes everything said *about* the book except for the Testimony of the Three Witnesses published therein which includes the part about how the people of Nephi, including the Lamanites, and the Jaredites “came from the tower” which gives the allusion that BOTH the Nephites and the Jaredites came from the Old World to settle within the New World which is the American continent. Thus, the general understanding of the voyages of both parties in the Book of Mormon beginning with Lehi as given in the 116 lost pages and the Jaredite story at the end of the book tells how peoples in the Old World came to the New World in fulfillment of prophecy in which the latter-day Seer would recover that record via golden plates.

I understand your earlier post:

Where was the murdered treasure-guardian ghost from? How and when did this Moroni, and the treasure he was guarding, get there?

The treasure the Smiths had been digging for, and the guardian charged with protecting it, came from Kedah on the Kedah Merchant, about 100 years earlier. In Joseph's mind, before the story fully took shape after 1830, the treasure of Hill Cumorah had been enchanted by a Malay pirate named Maroni in the late 17th century. The 5th century Hebrew-American prophet named Moroni came later on in the plot.

How do we know which story came first? Joseph Smith Sr. told Fayette Lapham ~1830 that "Soon after joining the Church, [Joseph] had a very singular dream ... in his dream, a very large and tall man appeared to him, dressed in an ancient suit of clothes, and the clothes were bloody. And the man said to him that there was a valuable treasure, buried many years since, and not far from that place; and that he had now arrived for it to be brought to light, for the benefit of the world at large; and, if he would strictly follow his directions, he would direct him to the place where it was deposited."

In my opinion, Joseph had Kedah in mind as the location all the way up until he rewrote the Book of Lehi. At that point he realized there wasn't much of a market in New England for a book about Jews in Kedah, so he changed the landing spot to the Americas. This shift in location is why the geography of the Book of Mormon matches Kedah almost perfectly.

I think based on the fragmentary information about these events and due to my unfamiliarity with it, it’s impossible for me to say what he had in his mind. It could be a combination of everything and let the chips fall where they may and improvise at will. That may seem like a cop out but that’s all I can say for now. You will agree that Smith was very capable of changing things up. His original goal was to write his own story about lost tribes/peoples coming from the holy land and tell it in his own way.

[x] Something else