The consequence of oversampling a subset is the reduction of the sampling error. If we had access to the survey itself, we could read or compute the sampling error for the subsamples. Given the small percentage of the U.S. that identifies as atheists, the sampling error is potentially quite large. As Don Bradley correctly pointed out, there are many surveys that have shown a correlation between members of organized religion and charitable giving. For me, the issue is how the causation works.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:18 pmThere is nothing you can possibly say about these different groups based on this survey. As the survey itself suggests:
The study asked 18-25 year olds of all religions about their political opinions, levels of civic engagement, and the degree to which their faith leaders shape them. To better resource our work with evangelicals, Neighborly Faith oversampled evangelicals and compared their responses to other Christians as well as young adults of other religions and no religion.Evangelicals are the largest religious group among young adults, yet there is very
little data available about how their faith shapes their civic engagement. This study
provides scholars, practitioners, and philanthropists a closer look into this group's
beliefs and activities. It identifies who Evangelical young adults are listening to in their
political, social, and religious lives and provides recommendations on how to best
partner with them for social change.So they asked 18-25 year old religious people and over-sampled a particular set of the religious people and compared their responses? Anyone who thinks there is anything legitimate to take out of this other than the goals of the survey (which is to learn about their Gen Z evangelicals) is really mixed up about surveys, studies and what we can get from them.For this study, we used a combination of original and existing measures. In partnership
with Springtide Research Institute, we customized questions to develop a comprehensive
survey about how religious leaders influence civic engagement, particularly among
Evangelical young adults.
The study included a nationally representative survey of 1,989 young adults aged 18 to 25
conducted in May and June 2022, oversampling for Evangelical and born-again young
adults to establish an understanding of religious leaders’ unique capacity to impact young
Evangelicals.
No thanks, MG. This is a big hoax Desnews and others have jumped on.
Secular folks should worry.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
Hi Don. Always good to see you.Don Bradley wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:50 amStudies find that religious people give more to both religious and secular causes than do the non-religious.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:05 pm
Not interested in researching your argument. For example, giving to a church is charitable giving, regardless of how it's spent. And most church's ask for donations. If I put money in a collection plate, I can claim I'm giving to charity, regardless of what the church spends it on.
Caring about your community and neighbors is a good thing. I don't think religion is required for that. The cause and effect relationship is more complicated than the information portrayed about the survey. As has been pointed out, Gen Z ers may be convinced that poverty, etc. is more effectively addressed through the government.
No one is climbing that only religious people care about community, yet the data of this study and others are consistent that the religious do more to actually build community and contribute to community then do the non-religious.
Don
I was mostly rankled by claims made about a survey that I cannot access without giving my e-mail address to an evangelical Christian organization. With surveys, as with anything else, is that the devil is in the details.
Apart from the correlation vs. causation issue, the existence of a community also raises the specter of tribalism. The dynamic of in-group friend out group enemy is always a problem. The OP is a pretty good example: if there is a downward trend in charitable giving, why should MG 2.0 be threatening out-group members as he does? I don't think there's a necessary or sufficient connection between religious belief and the positive aspects of community. Rather than using the results of this survey as a club against the outmembers of this tribe, shouldn't a genuine believer in the positive effects of community building be promoting community building beyond that of his own tribe?
But, thanks for the reminder. I let my frustration with the organization that conducted the survey spill over into some other issues.
I hope you and yours are well.
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we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
I'm not sure what you're saying. There's no indication of "atheist" in the survey at all, nor MG's or Desnews' conclusion of "secular". There is a chart including a label "non-religious" but that's not atheist nor is it necessarily secular. The quotations I offered were descriptions of Methodology in the survey itself. "The study included a nationally representative survey of 1,989 young adults aged 18 to 25 conducted in May and June 2022, oversampling for Evangelical and born-again young adults to establish an understanding of religious leaders’ unique capacity to impact young Evangelicals." That some young adults, as they get referred to here, who participate in religion consider themselves non-religious isn't surprising at all.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:56 pmThe consequence of oversampling a subset is the reduction of the sampling error. If we had access to the survey itself, we could read or compute the sampling error for the subsamples. Given the small percentage of the U.S. that identifies as atheists, the sampling error is potentially quite large. As Don Bradley correctly pointed out, there are many surveys that have shown a correlation between members of organized religion and charitable giving. For me, the issue is how the causation works.
Here are the key take aways the survey conductors listed:
As you can see, there's no indication that this included anyone who did not in any way attend or in some way participated in a Church. As I quoted:1. Evangelical young adults were the only group in the study to select religious texts and
religious leaders as the greatest sources of influence about political issues and
community engagement in their lives.
2. Evangelical young adults are more likely to be influenced by their religious leaders
than young adults from other religious groups.
3. Evangelical young adults are more influenced by their religious leaders than other
leaders in their lives.
4. Young Evangelicals' political opinions and civic engagement are shaped by a variety of
lay and professional religious leaders.
5. Evangelical and born-again young adults are significantly more likely to view their
religious leaders as mentors than young adults of other religions.
6. Evangelical/born-again young adults may develop more substantial relationships with
their religious leaders––especially worship, prayer, and youth group leaders. Meanwhile,
pastors and assistant pastors are relatively unlikely to be seen as mentors.
All I'm saying is even outside the terrible sounding unscientific approach they used to conduct the survey, its also true they had no intention whatsoever to gather any data whatsoever that resulted in what Desnews and MG are saying.In partnership with Springtide Research Institute, we customized questions to develop a comprehensive survey about how religious leaders influence civic engagement, particularly among Evangelical young adults.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
You're right. I substituted atheist for nonreligious. My bad.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:04 pmI'm not sure what you're saying. There's no indication of "atheist" in the survey at all, nor MG's or Desnews' conclusion of "secular". There is a chart including a label "non-religious" but that's not atheist nor is it necessarily secular. The quotations I offered were descriptions of Methodology in the survey itself. "The study included a nationally representative survey of 1,989 young adults aged 18 to 25 conducted in May and June 2022, oversampling for Evangelical and born-again young adults to establish an understanding of religious leaders’ unique capacity to impact young Evangelicals." That some young adults, as they get referred to here, who participate in religion consider themselves non-religious isn't surprising at all.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:56 pmThe consequence of oversampling a subset is the reduction of the sampling error. If we had access to the survey itself, we could read or compute the sampling error for the subsamples. Given the small percentage of the U.S. that identifies as atheists, the sampling error is potentially quite large. As Don Bradley correctly pointed out, there are many surveys that have shown a correlation between members of organized religion and charitable giving. For me, the issue is how the causation works.
Here are the key take aways the survey conductors listed:
As you can see, there's no indication that this included anyone who did not in any way attend or in some way participated in a Church. As I quoted:1. Evangelical young adults were the only group in the study to select religious texts and
religious leaders as the greatest sources of influence about political issues and
community engagement in their lives.
2. Evangelical young adults are more likely to be influenced by their religious leaders
than young adults from other religious groups.
3. Evangelical young adults are more influenced by their religious leaders than other
leaders in their lives.
4. Young Evangelicals' political opinions and civic engagement are shaped by a variety of
lay and professional religious leaders.
5. Evangelical and born-again young adults are significantly more likely to view their
religious leaders as mentors than young adults of other religions.
6. Evangelical/born-again young adults may develop more substantial relationships with
their religious leaders––especially worship, prayer, and youth group leaders. Meanwhile,
pastors and assistant pastors are relatively unlikely to be seen as mentors.
All I'm saying is even outside the terrible sounding unscientific approach they used to conduct the survey, its also true they had no intention whatsoever to gather any data whatsoever that resulted in what Desnews and MG are saying.In partnership with Springtide Research Institute, we customized questions to develop a comprehensive survey about how religious leaders influence civic engagement, particularly among Evangelical young adults.
Oversampling a subgroup is not necessarily an unscientific approach. The "oversampling" typically consists of something done in addition to the representative sample. So a representative sample is used to compare across groups, and the oversample is added to answer questions about divisions within the subgroup of interest. It doesn't necessarily mean that that the "representative sample" isn't representative.
The details would be in the survey itself.
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we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.
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holding each other’s hands.
— Alison Luterman
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
yes...but you're missing the point. The survey was only conducted to gather information on Evangelical Christians of that age, not compare them to other groups. notice the "Take aways" from the survey. If it was an effort to compare across groups there'd be something about that in their scope and methodology. Nope. They wanted to gather information on Evangelical Christians in the age group. We don't know if any of the respondents aren't in some way affiliated with an evangelical Church. It sounds like the only people surveyed had some affiliation with an evangelical Church (whatever that may mean). It just so happens some people that age who participate in Evangelical themed churches, to whatever extent, also consider themselves those of other religions, perhaps even a couple Mormons in there, and including some who don't consider themselves religious.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:17 pm
You're right. I substituted atheist for nonreligious. My bad.
Oversampling a subgroup is not necessarily an unscientific approach. The "oversampling" typically consists of something done in addition to the representative sample. So a representative sample is used to compare across groups, and the oversample is added to answer questions about divisions within the subgroup of interest. It doesn't necessarily mean that that the "representative sample" isn't representative.
The details would be in the survey itself.
Again:
nothing to do with any other religious group or non-religious group.In partnership with Springtide Research Institute, we customized questions to develop a comprehensive survey about how religious leaders influence civic engagement, particularly among Evangelical young adults.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
I think I understand your point. I just don't see sufficient evidence to support your point. You're correct about the purpose of the survey. But, as the chart posted by Honor shows, they also collected information across the different categories. There is nothing wrong with using that data to draw conclusions, provided that that the methodology is sound. If I look at a Pew survey, I can find the exact questions that were asked and the number of respondents for each. I can find how the sample was chosen, the sampling error for the sample, and the sampling error for any relevant subsample.dastardly stem wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:34 pmyes...but you're missing the point. The survey was only conducted to gather information on Evangelical Christians of that age, not compare them to other groups. notice the "Take aways" from the survey. If it was an effort to compare across groups there'd be something about that in their scope and methodology. Nope. They wanted to gather information on Evangelical Christians in the age group. We don't know if any of the respondents aren't in some way affiliated with an evangelical Church. It sounds like the only people surveyed had some affiliation with an evangelical Church (whatever that may mean). It just so happens some people that age who participate in Evangelical themed churches, to whatever extent, also consider themselves those of other religions, perhaps even a couple Mormons in there, and including some who don't consider themselves religious.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 6:17 pm
You're right. I substituted atheist for nonreligious. My bad.
Oversampling a subgroup is not necessarily an unscientific approach. The "oversampling" typically consists of something done in addition to the representative sample. So a representative sample is used to compare across groups, and the oversample is added to answer questions about divisions within the subgroup of interest. It doesn't necessarily mean that that the "representative sample" isn't representative.
The details would be in the survey itself.
Again:
nothing to do with any other religious group or non-religious group.In partnership with Springtide Research Institute, we customized questions to develop a comprehensive survey about how religious leaders influence civic engagement, particularly among Evangelical young adults.
I bit the bullet and got the survey using a throwaway e-mail address. The entire methodology section in the survey is basically what you stated. None of the detail that I would use to analyze a survey are included.
Disappointing.
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we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.
— Alison Luterman
we all just have to live through it,
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— Alison Luterman
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
Ha! Absolutely. Though some would suggest that warning others of the problems presented by belief in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would also be a form of community service.MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:47 pmWe just sent a donation to the Ukrainian war efforts through Amazon donations set up for that purpose. Monthly contributions to Water Aid. Operation Smile at Christmas. Community service in schools. There are many ways to contribute to civil society.
I hope you are also involved beyond your own kvetching on this board against Mormonism.
For what it's worth, Pres. Nelson just shuddered at your mention of the M word and the victory that you gave Satan.
Last edited by Morley on Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
I wonder to what extent the self reported community work and involvement in community groups may be related to one's religious community. People who are religious are much more likely to be involved with some religious community, and those religious communities often provide their own social and charitable opportunities.
Does cleaning the church building on a Saturday morning count as community work? Is paying tithing or making a fast offering a charitable donation?
How much of this boils down to the fact that religious people who are involved in a religious community do religious things in that community. That's not a knock on religion. I see it as a good thing. But it's also not all that remarkable. And it certainly doesn't say much about "secular folks" or provide any reason for concern.
Does cleaning the church building on a Saturday morning count as community work? Is paying tithing or making a fast offering a charitable donation?
How much of this boils down to the fact that religious people who are involved in a religious community do religious things in that community. That's not a knock on religion. I see it as a good thing. But it's also not all that remarkable. And it certainly doesn't say much about "secular folks" or provide any reason for concern.
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
Outstanding. I imagine you'd have the same list if you were a secular humanist. Don't you think?
By the way, I'm having a tough time finding how to donate to Ukrainian war efforts through Amazon. Can you provide a link?
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Re: Secular folks should worry.
MG is claiming he wouldn’t, in fact, do any of this if he weren’t a Mormon. Go figure.
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