Secular folks should worry.

[MG 2.0]

Holy war. Right. Aargh AGAIN.

In no way have I set out to make you, Res Ipsa, and enemy. You have taken it upon yourself to take offense where none was intended/given.

Regards,
MG

Well, let's test that out. Do I fall within your definition of "secularist"?

If we strictly define it as an individual that believes in separation of church and state, and that’s it, then yes. But then again, so do I.

So are we enemies on that count?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Look in the mirror bub.

For your information, understanding doesn’t mean acceptance in all instances. Although in a few posts along the way I've had a healthy respect for your position and why you come at certain things the way you do.

Abortion, for example. You actually went into some depth. That helped me appreciate your point of view, although I don’t accept it.

It has been a learning experience to try and understand where a person of your background and personal biases is coming from.

I am moderately literate and fully understand the difference between "understand" and "accept." I don't expect you to accept the sole claim I have been arguing throughout this thread: your statements about what "secularists" believe and the existential threat you claim they pose is based on nothing other than personal bigotry.

My beef is more with secular humanists. Just for fun, who were/are some of the great leaders of large nations that were/are secular humanists?

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

I see no judge or jury. Certainly no executioner.

And yet you believe I am doing the same to you. Simply because I disagree with your ideology of moral relativism (I’m assuming…at least to some extent…because of your non theist views.) and comfort level with ideologues (including those that take a non theist view of the world) exercising power and authority over the masses.

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong.

I will because you are.

So “moral relativism” is your latest label for my ideology. So, how does that function as an ideology in the way that Mormonism functions for you or Communism functioned for Mao?

Real world example: Upon returning home from a shopping trip, I find an official looking bag full of money in one of my shopping bags. How did moral relativism function for me in deciding what I should do with it?[/quote]

And if I am, what kind of ideologue would you feel comfortable with who would have some degree of influence/power over your life and freedoms that you now enjoy? Is there a certain political power/entity that is LEFT on the spectrum that WOULD concern you?

When I describe your parade of horrible atheistic leaders as “ideologues” I’m using the word to mean the “especially” part of the following definition :

an adherent of an ideology, especially one who is uncompromising and dogmatic.

I would not describe every person who has an ideology or ideologies as an ideologue. Each of the horrible leaders you use as examples had a dogmatic ideology that they thought justified what you and I would agree are atrocities. What all had in common was that their dogmatic ideology justified an authoritarian destruction of anyone or anything they perceived as a threat to their power. With Hitler, it was one religious sect. With Stalin, it was any organized religion. How they treated some of all religious people simply isn’t explained by the mere absence of a belief in God. There is no logical inference that leads from “I don’t believe in God” to gassing Jews.

So, as defined, I’m not comfortable with giving ideologues any political power at all. Right or left doesn’t matter. Yet, voters can and do elect ideologues from time to time. That’s how the system works.

Do you consider Mitt Romney, for example, as an ideologue that you could comfortably live with as President? Or would it have to be a liberal/leftest of some stripe?

I wouldn’t consider Romney an ideologue as I used the term. I’ve lived with several Republican presidents during my lifetime. I’m not sure what you mean by comfortable.

Do your nontheist views have any influence on your political leanings whatsoever?

Probably. I think lots of things have at least some degree of influence on my political leanings. But there’s nothing about being an atheist that naturally leads someone to the left side of the political spectrum. There are lots of conservatives atheists and libertarian atheists. So, although I think my novelized has some effect, I don’t think it’s necessarily pushed me to the right or left on the political spectrum. As an aside, I identified myself as a political liberal long before I identified as a nonbeliever, so who knows how any causation worked?

[MG 2.0]

I think I have.

Moral relativism. I think we’ve discussed this.

God has absolutes.

Regards,
MG

No, God doesn’t.

I’d be interested in your fleshing this out.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Well, let's test that out. Do I fall within your definition of "secularist"?

If we strictly define it as an individual that believes in separation of church and state, and that’s it, then yes. But then again, so do I.

So are we enemies on that count?

Regards,
MG

I don’t and never have considered you as my enemy.

OK, do you believe that “secularism” as you now define it is a threat to civil society?

[MG 2.0]

And yet you believe I am doing the same to you. Simply because I disagree with your ideology of moral relativism (I’m assuming…at least to some extent…because of your non theist views.) and comfort level with ideologues (including those that take a non theist view of the world) exercising power and authority over the masses.

I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong.

I will because you are.

So “moral relativism” is your latest label for my ideology. So, how does that function as an ideology in the way that Mormonism functions for you or Communism functioned for Mao?

Real world example: Upon returning home from a shopping trip, I find an official looking bag full of money in one of my shopping bags. How did moral relativism function for me in deciding what I should do with it?

And if I am, what kind of ideologue would you feel comfortable with who would have some degree of influence/power over your life and freedoms that you now enjoy? Is there a certain political power/entity that is LEFT on the spectrum that WOULD concern you?

Do you consider Mitt Romney, for example, as an ideologue that you could comfortably live with as President? Or would it have to be a liberal/leftest of some stripe?

Do your nontheist views have any influence on your political leanings whatsoever?

Regards,
MG

You are saying my words as if they were yours. You may want to correct that.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

If we strictly define it as an individual that believes in separation of church and state, and that’s it, then yes. But then again, so do I.

So are we enemies on that count?

Regards,
MG

I don’t and never have considered you as my enemy.

OK, do you believe that “secularism” as you now define it is a threat to civil society?

To be more clear, I would say secular humanism.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What you have never done in all these pages and pages of posts is describe what you contend is the "ideology" that competes with yours.

I think I have.

Moral relativism. I think we’ve discussed this.

God has absolutes.

Regards,
MG

Yet another example of Mental Muppet not knowing his own religion.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

Res Ipsa,

I’ll check back in at a later time/date. I need to move on to other things for the time being.

My wife wants to watch a movie, for one.

Thank you for the discussion up to this point.

I’d like to also give others a chance to jump in and agree/disagree with you and create another strain/path of dialogue other than the strain/path that we’re on…which has been fairly predictable in its course although unpredictable in its length.

Wow.

I’m happy, at this point, to let those who read this thread take what we’ve each contributed, along with others such as Doc and Marcus, and then view it all based on their own sense and sensibilities.

Until another time, take care.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

I think I have.

Moral relativism. I think we’ve discussed this.

God has absolutes.

Regards,
MG

No, God doesn’t.

Actually, MG may be correct in that his god may have absolutes. It's just that we cannot depend on his god displaying them with any degree of consistency.

That is, he is not absolute in his absolutism.