Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

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doubtingthomas
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Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by doubtingthomas »

Scientists, theologians, and philosophers don't have a good answer to the question of why is there anything at all. It's clear the human brain did not evolve to have an answer, but that doesn't stop apologists from trying.

Some apologists seem to suggest that time is nonlinear.
Because we mortal humans think only in terms of linear time, the idea of the. Fall being applied to the future and the past seems strange. But, is this tactic strange to God who is not limited by time (see Alma 40:8)?
https://interpreterfoundation.org/repri ... evolution/

However, the idea that time is nonlinear doesn't really explain anything at all, as Kipping points out in his new video.

https://youtu.be/UgQlcEF9BOM
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by Moksha »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:35 am
Some apologists seem to suggest that time is nonlinear.
It allows Adam-ondi-Ahman to be placed on the supercontinent of Pangea along the Tigress and Euphrates Rivers. The downside to that theory is that none of those structures existed at that time, but if you were somehow able to disrupt and resegment slices of time it could work.

The downside to this is the possibility of an Allosaurus swallowing President Nelson before he can avoid the subject of the SEC investigation at the April General Conference.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by doubtingthomas »

I understand why nobody wants to think about this question. I can make someone go crazy.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by Physics Guy »

It's not clear what there is to discuss about "nonlinear time". I can't even tell what "nonlinear" means, as a description of time. It's a gibberish phrase.

A linear differential equation is a differential equation with two important properties: multiplying any solution by any constant yields another solution, and adding any two solutions together yields another solution. This means that if you can find just a few solutions to a linear differential equation, then you have effectively found all possible solutions, because you can easily generate any solution just by combining the few that you have. Nonlinear differential equations are simply all the differential equations that do not have that infinitely convenient feature. They are thus very much more difficult to solve. Coping with nonlinearity is a fundamental issue in physics.

I don't know any other physics-relevant meaning for "nonlinear" besides that one, and time is not a differential equation, so I have no idea how time could be nonlinear. It's not that "nonlinear time" is a radical concept: it's not a concept at all, but just gibberish. It makes no more sense than "lemon-flavoured time".

What I suspect is that somebody has some idea about time which they think is cool but difficult, and they have heard that nonlinearity is cool but difficult, so they imagine that "nonlinear" is a good word to use for their cool and difficult idea about time.

If the idea that people are trying (so awkwardly) to express with "nonlinear time" is that the future can determine the past, rather than the other way around ... then I'm afraid this isn't a radical idea at all. It's the whole point of deterministic causality. Sufficient boundary conditions at any point in time—or even at multiple different points—completely determine the entire course of history, before as well as after.

The mysterious puzzle isn't how causality could work in both direction like that. Causality obviously has to work in both directions, because cause-and-effect is a one-to-one relationship. The big mystery that physics still hasn't solved is why we don't naturally think that way, but instead always tend to think forwards in time, wondering what will happen tomorrow and taking yesterday for granted.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by drumdude »

Sounds like a very Deepak Chopra idea.

Heavy on the deep-ity.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by malkie »

Not wishing to boast, or anything (!), but I apparently made a tiny expedition into the future (apart from my normal 24h/day) with a comment on a blog.

In the space where it normally tells you date & time when the comment was made (or how long since), I saw this:

Image
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by malkie »

Also:

Image
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by dastardly stem »

Whenever people set out to describe God it sounds to me like a bunch of nonsense--often a perfect description of nothing. A God who is outside of time or linear time, whatever that goofy concept amounts to, sounds about like nothing to me.
Because we mortal humans think only in terms of linear time, the idea of the. Fall being applied to the future and the past seems strange. But, is this tactic strange to God who is not limited by time (see Alma 40:8)?
There's nothing strange in applying the fall to the future and past. If it happened and there's a God who cares about it, then it happened and the God who cares applies it. There are no spooky thoughts inherent here. But that's not the explanation of the fall in the word of God. Of course trying to explain the inconsistency as described in scripture by using some mental gymnastics about "it could be" doesn't give much reason to accept the notion. It's only a slimey way to escape the incongruity and thus pretend it's not there. Was death introduced as a result of the fall or not? "Well yes, but you see, since death came before the fall that just means God is outside time and the fall applies before it happened, because God isn't stuck in linear time...or something".

Are you sure? Why twist it if you can't even know?

He exclaims:
What physical observation indicates or could indicate that God was the Creator? would that observation need to show something that could not be explained by natural means? That seems to be the assumption of creationists, atheist evolutionists, and Intelligent Designers. is that premise legitimate? Why could God not apply natural means to create the world? That would still take great skill and knowledge!
I don't understand why arguing that GOd is an unfalsifiable concept helps the case. The issue is not can God hide from everyone and we'll never be able to find him unless, of course, we assume our "spiritual experience" somehow is more important and informative than everything else? This puts God exactly nowhere but in the imaginations of believers. We can't know otherwise. Why is that rational, which was the point he was trying to argue for the whole time.

I think he's mischaracterizing what an atheist position would be. Its not that God couldn't hide himself from us tricking us in every way possible along the way, unless of course we somehow assume there's a spirit world. It is simply that the proposal of God as an explanation for everything is for one, not an explanation at all; and for two, is simply adding an extremely complex unnecessary idea to the whole equation, which I'd argue is more complex than anything ever and so complex it's basically incoherent. There's nothing rational there.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by dastardly stem »

His ending quote:
If I can only make dear this one thing, it will give us a basis on which to build. Man cannot discover God or his ways by mere mental processes. One must be governed by the Jaws which control the realm into which he isdelving.fo become a plumber, one must study the laws which govern plumbing. He must know stresses and strains; temperatures al which pipes will free1.e; Jaws which govern steam, hot water, expansion, contraction, and so fort...One might be the best of bookkeepers and yet not know anything of electricity...One might be a noted theologian and yet be wholly untrained in watchmaking. One might be the author of the law of relativity and yet know nothing of the Creator who originated every law....

Any intelligent man may learn what he wants to learn. He may acquire knowledge in any field, though it requires much thought and effort. It takes more than a decade to get a high school diploma; it takes an additional four years for most people to get a college degree; it takes nearly a quarter-century lo become a great physician. Why, oh, why do people think they can fathom the most complex spiritual depths without the necessary experimental and laboratory work accompanied by compliance with the laws that govern it? Absurd it is, but you will frequently find popular personalities, who seem never to have lived a single law of God, discoursing in interviews on religion. How ridiculous for such persons to attempt to outline for the world a way of life!

And yet many a financier, politician, college professor, or owner of a gambling club thinks that because he has risen above all his fellowmen in his particular field he knows everything in every field. One cannot know God nor understand his works or plans unless he follows the laws which govern. The spiritual realm, which is just as absolute as is the physical, cannot be understood by the laws of the physical. You do not learn to make electric generators in a seminary. Neither do you learn certain truths about spiritual things in a physics laboratory. You must go lo the spiritual laboralory, use the facilities available there, and comply with the governing rules. Then you may know of these truths just as surely, or more surely, than the scientist knows the metals, or the acids, or other elements. It matters little whether one is a plumber, or a banker, or a farmer, for these occupations are secondary; what is most important is what one knows and believes concerning his past and his future and what he does about it.21
But that'd all be begging the question and thus not a rational pursuit. A spirit world is as make believe as any imagined other word humans have thought of. If we assume such a world, I suppose, that makes it sound reasonable. But why assume it? Because one can imagine it? Because individuals like to think of themselves as more important than they appear to be? If it doesn't make sense why act as if anyone who thinks it is not is wrong because they aren't expert in the spiritual?

Seems obvious...he failed at his goal--religious belief is not a rational pursuit at all.
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Re: Kipping does it again! Why is there something rather than nothing? LDS Apologists suggest time is nonlinear

Post by huckelberry »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 7:16 am
It's not clear what there is to discuss about "nonlinear time". I can't even tell what "nonlinear" means, as a description of time. It's a gibberish phrase.

A linear differential equation is a differential equation with two important properties: multiplying any solution by any constant yields another solution, and adding any two solutions together yields another solution. This means that if you can find just a few solutions to a linear differential equation, then you have effectively found all possible solutions, because you can easily generate any solution just by combining the few that you have. Nonlinear differential equations are simply all the differential equations that do not have that infinitely convenient feature. They are thus very much more difficult to solve. Coping with nonlinearity is a fundamental issue in physics.

I don't know any other physics-relevant meaning for "nonlinear" besides that one, and time is not a differential equation, so I have no idea how time could be nonlinear. It's not that "nonlinear time" is a radical concept: it's not a concept at all, but just gibberish. It makes no more sense than "lemon-flavoured time".

What I suspect is that somebody has some idea about time which they think is cool but difficult, and they have heard that nonlinearity is cool but difficult, so they imagine that "nonlinear" is a good word to use for their cool and difficult idea about time.

If the idea that people are trying (so awkwardly) to express with "nonlinear time" is that the future can determine the past, rather than the other way around ... then I'm afraid this isn't a radical idea at all. It's the whole point of deterministic causality. Sufficient boundary conditions at any point in time—or even at multiple different points—completely determine the entire course of history, before as well as after.

The mysterious puzzle isn't how causality could work in both direction like that. Causality obviously has to work in both directions, because cause-and-effect is a one-to-one relationship. The big mystery that physics still hasn't solved is why we don't naturally think that way, but instead always tend to think forwards in time, wondering what will happen tomorrow and taking yesterday for granted.
Physics Guy, not to try and take away from the clarity of your above observations but about our thinking forwards in time... If I could go back to yesterday that would change how I think of things. I find myself having to speculate about the future in order to decide what to do now. I realize that the sequence ,including my choice is in a determined chain. one part of that chain is my laboring to think forward in time.
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