Secular folks should worry.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5292
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:52 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:36 pm

It's central to the entire premise of the OP. It's not beating a dead horse to actually engage the foundational arguments of a claim. You didn't even engage it in a meaningful way once, let alone could claim it's just going round and round. More like you dipped and don't want to address it.

Wow.
You're wasting your time. MG2.0 is not interested in a good faith discussion.
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing for many pages now on this thread. I haven’t seen much in the way of discussion from you in response to my posts.

And by way of clarification, I have participated on other threads with good faith. But it’s admittedly difficult when flak and innuendo are being thrown around by other players working in coordination.

A lone wolf when being attacked by the pack is always going to be at risk of being mauled.

But in my case, not beaten. 🙂

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5292
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:36 pm
Is this civil society?

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ame=iossmf

Mormon women sharing their stories of being raped by their Mormon husbands, and being met with disbelief or indifference. I don’t think GenZ has to worry about a secular world when the religious one is traumatizing its own so efficiently.

- Doc
Instances of rape and other sexual crimes are never OK. Not in the churches. Not in society.

But this issue is unrelated to the points I’ve been making throughout this thread. This is just another example, of many, where flak is being thrown out to mask and/or block the conversation at hand.

A tactic which is transparent and readily observable by all.

The concerns expressed in the OP and throughout this thread that secular humanist progressive liberals pose a danger to society in the long run still stand. Not as individuals, of course, but en masse as they grab governmental power and influence.

Some of the recent House Sub Committee Hearings are demonstrating/showing this in real time.

Watch and learn.

I would invite lurkers and others to read the complete thread including links that I have provided.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
God
Posts: 6581
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

Morley wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:52 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:36 pm

It's central to the entire premise of the OP. It's not beating a dead horse to actually engage the foundational arguments of a claim. You didn't even engage it in a meaningful way once, let alone could claim it's just going round and round. More like you dipped and don't want to address it.

Wow.
You're wasting your time. MG2.0 is not interested in a good faith discussion.
again.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5292
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:19 pm
Morley wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:52 pm


You're wasting your time. MG2.0 is not interested in a good faith discussion.
again.
Not true.

Again.

Regards,
MG
Marcus
God
Posts: 6581
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

bumped
honorentheos wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:36 pm
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:35 am


Rinse and repeat.

I’ve said my piece and you have said yours.

But you want to beat a dead horse.

It’s a merry go round.

Regards,
MG
It's central to the entire premise of the OP. It's not beating a dead horse to actually engage the foundational arguments of a claim. You didn't even engage it in a meaningful way once, let alone could claim it's just going round and round. More like you dipped and don't want to address it.

Wow.
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9710
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:01 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:36 pm
Is this civil society?

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ame=iossmf

Mormon women sharing their stories of being raped by their Mormon husbands, and being met with disbelief or indifference. I don’t think GenZ has to worry about a secular world when the religious one is traumatizing its own so efficiently.

- Doc
Instances of rape and other sexual crimes are never OK. Not in the churches. Not in society.

But this issue is unrelated to the points I’ve been making throughout this thread.
Yes yes. The typical conservative clucking his tongue and shaking his head at the sins of his own people. Whatever can be done, as he wrings his hands? It’s really the liberals who are the threat, though.

Your people institutionally “F” kids when there isn’t a secular government to stop them from damned kids. Your people rape and beat their wives, many of whom are married off as kids, without a secular government to stop them from raping and beating their wives, many of whom were kids. Your non-secular vision of “power” is a dystopian nightmare where dopey men like yourself are given power you neither understand nor can handle.

- Doc
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 5292
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:46 pm
There were a number of times when there seemed to be a general confusion on the usage of the word ‘secular’. In this article the author uses the word in such a way that I think her usage matches pretty much my own. She also expresses some important things to consider in reference to the GenZ’s movement towards progressivism as was mentioned in the article linked to in the opening post of this thread.

Some food for thought:

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/how-religiou ... al-health/

Some key points:
… a number of scholars have recently noticed, the mental health crisis being experienced by many teen and young adult women may have something to do with how little power they feel they have.

… Writing for the Free Press recently, Jonathan Haidt cited a widely accepted theory in psychology about differences in how people perceive how much control they have:

“Some people have an internal locus of control — they feel as if they have the power to choose a course of action and make it happen, while other people have an external locus of control — they have little sense of agency and they believe that strong forces or agents outside of themselves will determine what happens to them.”

… A number of factors have led young women — and liberal young women in particular — to have more of an external locus of control than previous generations or than their conservative peers. Social media certainly seems to have had an outsized effect on girls.

But it is also the messages that young progressives have embraced as a result of their political ideology — especially the idea that the world is made up of oppressors and victims (or good people and bad people) and the idea that another person’s words can cause a person deep and lasting harm.

What’s interesting is that these are ideas that liberals often associate with being a conservative or being strongly religious. It is not uncommon to see the secular media portray religious young people as powerless, simply following orders from their elders or from God.

… And it is also not uncommon to see religious folks portrayed as believing that the world is made up of good people and bad people, or as being so sensitive as to think that a few words can cause them real harm. They are the ones who want to “ban” books and who condemn swearing or taking the Lord’s name in vain.

But multiple studies have found religious belief is correlated with positive mental health. An interesting paper on Orthodox Jews published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion found that during the pandemic, “A Closeness-to-God Index predicted lower levels of depression and anxiety, less perceived stress, and less loneliness.”

… So what is the difference between this conservative religious worldview and the progressive secular one?

For one thing, rather than making kids feel like cogs in a machine, religion teaches them that God sees them as individuals who are valuable and helpful. Secular progressives see structural barriers to change and increasingly believe that these are all but impossible to change without massive government interventions.

My fifth grader this year was shown a video in school that said the world would end in 2030. It’s hardly the kind of thing that makes one feel empowered; rather, it just makes you feel like you’re doomed and there’s nothing you can do (though one girl did announce she was going vegan as a result). Religious folks are still of the opinion that small actions by individuals have the potential to fix things.

… While secular liberals may divide the world into good people and bad people, or oppressors and victims, religious people tend to believe that everyone is capable of good and evil. But this too gives them a sense of power — power that they can change themselves and that they can influence the behavior of others.

… it’s also worth thinking about how religious affiliation helps young people find meaning and take control of their lives.
Earlier I had mentioned the same thing as this author, that secularization gradually moves a society towards ‘willing’ that government take more control over people’s lives. And as mentioned earlier, secular progressives ought to be concerned with this.

Just how much control to we want government to have vs. individual agency and freedom/liberty?

I realize that secular liberal progressives will find ways to build around this and wrap it all up in a way that makes it look like a utopia. But the fact remains, as time goes on there will be greater and greater conflict between secular progressive liberals and conservatives.

One more important point this opinion piece brings to the fore:

The current attitudes among young progressives were not always the attitudes on the left. Individual empowerment (which often led to communal empowerment) was commonly preached in the past. Indeed, it was preached by folks on the left who were often religious themselves.
Times, they are a changin’.

This is why it is important for religious folks not give up the fight for what they believe is right and good. And it’s important that religious folks follow the teachings of Jesus and be peacemakers when issues are escalated to either the far right or left of the religious and/or political spectrum. Because the truth is, there will be those that resort to ad hominem attacks, twisting of words, and verbal abuse to try and ‘rule the day’.

In conference this past weekend the teachings of Jesus in regards to being a peacemaker was emphasized a number of times. President Nelson’s talk dealt mainly with this. My hope is that as time goes on and as secular progressive liberals become a more outspoken segment of society we can all live together with some degree of harmony.

That would be a key component of ‘civil society’.

As it is, there is just too much bickering, name calling, and incivility these days. Especially online it seems.

Regards,
MG
*bumped
Marcus
God
Posts: 6581
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Marcus »

did you not see the responses to your post?
dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:55 pm
A quick search into the article posted by MG. Much like the one in the OP, MG has been tricked by an article's author to give him the wrong impression about the study in question.

The article suggests:
Orthodox Jews published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion found that during the pandemic, “A Closeness-to-God Index predicted lower levels of depression and anxiety, less perceived stress, and less loneliness.”
Search for the study:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jssr.12770

From the abstract of that study:
we examine how COVID-19 has affected the mental health of Orthodox Jews and how religious resources cushion the effects of isolation and deprivation of religious gatherings over time.
So they are looking at the mental health of Orthodox Jews and in so doing conjured up a "Closenss to God" index among these religious people. The religious Orthodox Jews who rated a lower "Closeness-to-God" score were having more mental health issues, apparently.

Much like the study being used by MG int he OP, this one too does not suggest anything about secular people. It's a study among Orthodox Jews.

MG's article:
But multiple studies have found religious belief is correlated with positive mental health.
no. This study does not compare a secular population with a religious one. it simply is meant to study the effects among Orthodox Jews and their relation to "Closeness-to-God".

His article also suffers from being nothing more than a fallacy known as false dichotomy. After all even religious people can support many liberal ideals.
it's always frustrating to find research is being mis-used, but it seems to happen repeatedly, so you always need to confirm before just believing.
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9710
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:25 pm
Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:19 pm

again.
Not true.

Again.

Regards,
MG
What MG thinks a secular society is doing to his utopian Mormon world:

Image

- Doc
User avatar
Morley
God
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: Pierre Adolphe Valette, Self-Portrait Wearing Straw Hat

Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Morley wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:52 pm
You're wasting your time. MG2.0 is not interested in a good faith discussion.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:49 pm
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing for many pages now on this thread. I haven’t seen much in the way of discussion from you in response to my posts.

And by way of clarification, I have participated on other threads with good faith. But it’s admittedly difficult when flak and innuendo are being thrown around by other players working in coordination.

A lone wolf when being attacked by the pack is always going to be at risk of being mauled.

But in my case, not beaten. 🙂
Earlier, in the thread, you were repeatedly asked to explain what you meant when you used the word 'secularist' disparagingly.

The following exchange is why I remind honor that you're not interested in engaging in good faith:

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:01 pm
MG,

You claim to believe in the separation of church from state. That would make you a secularist.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:22 pm

You sure like to convolute things into a rhetorical and definitive mess.

That’s what you do. Pretty good at it I don’t hesitate to say.
Given this, it's understandable that your interlocutors would ask you to unambiguously define your terms. Don't you think?

That you refuse to type out--explicitly--what you mean when you use a term, suggests that you're not really interested in discussion.

Maybe while you're at it, you can define what you mean when you call someone a 'secular humanist,' since this seems to be your new term of denigration.
Post Reply