MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:22 pm
MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:42 am
I suppose at the end of this discussion my worry is that as GenZ shows a tendency towards moving away from the “faith of their fathers” (generally speaking) and becoming more secular and non theistic in their leanings we may see a trend towards placing ‘faith’ in government and institutions as being their ‘savior’ of sorts.
Conservatives and even many classical liberals would rather that we have limited government rather than a government, with all of its appendages (military industrial complex and other ‘complexes’) becoming ‘god’ in the power and authority it exercises in our lives and freedoms (free speech, etc.).
At the end of the day that is where my concerns lie.
I am NOT condemning GenZ. I am simply concerned in regards as to where their natural impulses of ‘faith’ in SOMETHING will lead them if they see government as the replacement for natural law which is seen as having its source from an all wise creator. In other words placing all faith and belief in the councils of men and fully trusting in that wisdom alone.
And to be clear I do believe in complete separation of church and state. Somewhere earlier in the thread someone made an accusation otherwise.
And to repeat, I am not in disfavor of any individual choosing secularism over theistic belief. I am concerned with any sort/kind of a groundswell that would replace religion or theistic belief with strict government influence and/or controls. Which COULD result in the elimination of free exercise of religion at some point in time. I see GenZ as showing potential to move that direction. That is, placing too much faith in government apparatus as being ‘savior’.
Maybe I’m wrong. If so, awesome (in my opinion).
I’ve enjoyed the discussion. I believe, however, there has been a significant degree of misunderstanding which has resulted in unwarranted criticism and innuendo. But that’s water under the bridge at this point. I’m happy to let things sit as they are. Some valid points have been made all the way around.
I appreciated those that exercised a degree of civility and understanding without jumping to hasty conclusions and the resulting accusations which can create disharmony and misunderstanding.
It is THAT civility that will be the hope of a future society where all people can coexist in peace.
Thanks all. Good conversation overall except for some blips here and there.
Until later.
Regards,
MG
Looking at the responses to this post I made yesterday.
The concerns which I’ve expressed have not been addressed. And it is those concerns that I believe we all ought to be worried about in the future. The Big Brother effect of government control and/or overreach. The question is whether or not recent generations of secular humanist liberals…with GenZ leading at the forefront…are taking us to places where in the final analyses we would rather not go.
If you read my reposted comments that I have provided here for the second time you will understand where the concerns of many conservatives lie. These concerns either don’t seem to be on the radar and/or are not addressed seriously by secular humanist liberals because they are supportive of greater government controls and intervention in the lives of citizens as long as it supports their leftest progressive agenda.
GenZ seems to be moving along towards moving that agenda along into the future. Theists, of course, would have concerns that many of you folks may not have simply because of opposing worldviews.
Anyway, I think this is where we kind of end up in a basic disagreement. What is important, as I’ve said, is that we get along and not fall into a trap of non acceptance of each other. THAT is the problem we’re facing as a nation/world now.
Jesus’s teachings of being peacemakers are apropos as some of these divides seemingly get wider.
The Atlantic article I linked to is a good article, by the way.
Regards,
MG
In other words, the conservative anti-government paranoia is losing in the marketplace of ideas. Too bad, so sad. The conservatism of Ronald Regan dismantled the greatest achievement of the American economic system: the creation of a strong middle class. Until 1980, the fruits of the engine of American prosperity were shared proportionately by rich and poor. That all changed starting in 1980, when the Republican Party began shifting the distribution of wealth and income more and more in favor of the rich. The U.S. continued to enjoy ever increasing real per capita income, but it all went to the wealthy. And on top of that, it set the middle and lower classes against each other to fight over the scraps in the hope that no one would notice where all the money went.
Conservatives have no answers for the problems and crises that face the newest generation of Americans. Among first-world countries, we pay the most for the worst health care simply because conservatives pee their pants at the mere thought of government involvement in health care, despite the evidence we see from other first-world countries. If you can't afford health care, the conservative's answer is, then die and be quick about it.
When we had a healthy middle class, the way middle class families tapped into wealth accumulation was home ownership. Now, ownership is foreclosed for the vast percentage of young people as the rich acquire portfolios of single family homes as investment vehicles, turning what would have been a new generation of home owners into a permanent renter class. What's the conservative answer? Something something something market something.
In the last couple of years, we've seen increases in real wages, which in part triggered a round of conservative inflation hysteria. What's the conservative answer? Repeal child labor protections. Back to the 1800's we go.
And climate? Reagan conservatives denied and lied for years about some pretty simple physics regarding what happens when you increase the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere far beyond anything in human experience. As a result, what was a problem we could have addressed incrementally for 40 years has grown into a full-blown crisis that the Gen Z and beyond are saddled with fixing. What's the conservative answer? Drill baby drill! Keep lining the pockets of fossil fuel companies until we've sucked the last drop out from under the earth. 7+ degrees F or bust.
Gen Z can read. They can spot the glaring hypocrisy between what conservatives say and what they've actually accomplished. They can trace the line from Regan-style conservatism directly to today's MAGA Christo-Authoritarian insanity. The party that pretended to want "judicial restraint" now celebrates one of the most activist court's in my lifetime. The party of individual freedom now uses the power of big government to force pregnant women to give birth. It denies health care to transgender folks. It returns us to the era of child labor. It gags teachers and professors so they won't say something that offends it. It makes sure children go hungry. It makes sure that people who can't afford housing have to live in their cars or on the street. It enabled and supported the election of an unqualified authoritarian demagogue to the highest office in the country. It actively works toward making it more difficult for black and brown folks to vote rather than do something to attract them as voters.
Yes. I understand why you and other conservatives are worried. The conservatives of the early '80s sold their souls to so-called "movement conservatives" to win elections. And where that ended up was angry mobs of so-called Christians acting like thugs over drag queens and library books that mention slavery or show LGBT+ folks in any kind of positive light. Meanwhile, the real problems facing Gen Z and the upcoming generations are made worse and worse. All because you're paranoid about Stalin.
The only conservative program to address major societal problems for decades has been to cut taxes, obstruct and sabotage government at every turn, and demonize "the left." And guess what? People are getting a good look at what that translates to on the ground, and they're not liking it. And they're looking at what happens when religious extremists are given governmental power, and they're not liking that much either.
Of course you're afraid. You're losing in the marketplace of ideas -- both politically and theologically. When the political party with which most conservatives identify has as its political platform: "Donald Trump," it has shown itself to be intellectually bankrupt when it comes to making the lives of its citizens better. When its legacy is underfunded government, deteriorating infrastructure, enormous deficits created by cutting taxes ad infinitem, a shocking rate of incarceration, and a rate of violence and murder that should be shocking to any American, what would be the appeal to new voters?
All you have is fear and division. if the country turns away from religion and conservatism, it's your own damn fault.
is still going strong. Gee, I wonder why younger people don’t trust their church and look to involving government to protect themselves from the faith of others …
