The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Shulem »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:19 am
brianhales wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:02 pm
I'm new to this chat board. I have to say that accuracy doesn't seem to be prized here.
Hi Brother Hales,

Would you say accuracy here is prized more, less, or about the same as the accuracy you display in your writings on polygamy wherein you utterly ignore all the obvious conclusions in favor of pushing wildly fanciful, zero-likelihood theories in an effort to absolve Joseph Smith from wrongdoing?

I demand "accuracy" on this board, period.

What is the king's name in Facsimile No. 3, Brian Hales? Just answer that question or admit that there isn't a king's name and Joseph Smith was simply telling another lie on top of all his other lies.

Well, what is the king's name, BRIAN?! The name!!! Spell it out, please:

x__________________

You see, here on this board, we don't BS about the king's name like Mormon apologists do who love to lie about things because lying is required in order to maintain a testimonkey.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Shulem »

Brian Hales wrote:Chariots with wheels are not described in the Book of Mormon.
Brian Hales wrote:So assuming Lamoni’s “chariots” had wheels may not be justified.
Brian Hales wrote:Wheels would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions.

QUESTION

DO CHARIOTS ALWAYS HAVE WHEELS WHEN IN TRANSPORT?
[ ] yes [ ] no
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:53 am
Building a house of cards requires care and precision. If a civil engineer declines to certify a house of cards for human habitation, though, she may not be failing to prize all its accuracy. Her point may just be that it's still made of cards.

The analogy may not be fitting in this case, but the principle is a real one: sometimes dismissing details really is the most important point to make. So it's not always a valid defence just to say that somebody has garbled or overlooked your details. You have to make the case that those particular details really matter, and that you're not just fussing over gnats while swallowing camels.
I read the "horse" section of the paper and straining at gnats while swallowing camels was exactly what I thought of.

The camel? There was a non-horse culture that had horses in a place and time where there were no horses.

I think that's actually more like swallowing a battle rhino.
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5430
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Philo Sofee »

Brian Hales wrote:
Wheels [for chariots] would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions.
HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!! Erm... lemmee guess........Hales isn't peer reviewed by anyone in his camp either?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is literally over the top stupid. I can't even. I mean were I his father, I would blush in shame for him making a statement like this.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:03 pm
Brian Hales wrote:
Wheels [for chariots] would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions.
HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!! Erm... lemmee guess........Hales isn't peer reviewed by anyone in his camp either?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is literally over the top stupid. I can't even. I mean were I his father, I would blush in shame for him making a statement like this.

It's possible they rode on sleds.


Image

Book of Mormon stories that my teacher tells to me are about the Lamanites in ancient history.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Shulem »

Brian hales wrote:No distances in the Promised Land require months or years to traverse.

Ergo, the hill Cumorah in New York State in which Moroni buried the plates cannot be classed within the blessed territory of the Promised Land (200 x 400 miles) because *that* land according to Hales & Peterson are located down south near the banana republics.

Do you hear that, Brian?

PS. Peterson, you really are a dummy. A fat one! You stupid man.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7567
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:52 pm
Brian hales wrote:No distances in the Promised Land require months or years to traverse.
Ergo, the hill Cumorah in New York State in which Moroni buried the plates cannot be classed within the blessed territory of the Promised Land (200 x 400 miles) because *that* land according to Hales & Peterson are located down south near the banana republics.
But where is the Promised Land, Brian? At least the Heartlanders understand the spirit & doctrine (God bless the USA) of the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerican apologists are dodos and deniers in thinking the "Promised Land" is down in Mexico.
3 Nephi 20:22 wrote:And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the  covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.
And then:
3 Nephi 21 wrote:22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my  people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the  New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
Moroni envisioned the New Jerusalem being in America and established by Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saint Church. He recognized how the Jaredites & Nephites inherited the *same* Land of Promise inhabited by JOSEPH SMITH and the gold plates. Moroni said, "Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a new Jerusalem upon this land."

What land? The land in which JOSEPH lived and where the gold plates were buried. THAT is the promised land of the Book of Mormon.

What part of that do you not understand, Brian? have you been brainwashed for so long that you can no longer think with both sides of your brain?
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5430
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:25 pm
Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:52 pm
Ergo, the hill Cumorah in New York State in which Moroni buried the plates cannot be classed within the blessed territory of the Promised Land (200 x 400 miles) because *that* land according to Hales & Peterson are located down south near the banana republics.
But where is the Promised Land, Brian? At least the Heartlanders understand the spirit & doctrine (God bless the USA) of the Book of Mormon. Mesoamerican apologists are dodos and deniers in thinking the "Promised Land" is down in Mexico.
3 Nephi 20:22 wrote:And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the  covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.
And then:
3 Nephi 21 wrote:22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my  people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the  New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
Moroni envisioned the New Jerusalem being in America and established by Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saint Church. He recognized how the Jaredites & Nephites inherited the *same* Land of Promise inhabited by JOSEPH SMITH and the gold plates. Moroni said, "Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a new Jerusalem upon this land."

What land? The land in which JOSEPH lived and where the gold plates were buried. THAT is the promised land of the Book of Mormon.

What part of that do you not understand, Brian? have you been brainwashed for so long that you can no longer think with both sides of your brain?
And...... and....... did not Joseph Smith himself declare the Adam Ondi Ahman the NEW JERUSALEM? And it is in Missouri, not Mesoamerica? So, do any Mesoamericanist actually believe what Joseph Smith himself established by revelation from Jesus Christ?! Just who are the apostates anyway?
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 10636
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Res Ipsa »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:03 pm
Brian Hales wrote:
Wheels [for chariots] would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions.
HOWLING LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!! Erm... lemmee guess........Hales isn't peer reviewed by anyone in his camp either?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is literally over the top stupid. I can't even. I mean were I his father, I would blush in shame for him making a statement like this.
It's far beyond stupid. It's mendacious. Here's the whole quote:
One definition for chariot in the Oxford Dictionary specifies “a stately vehicle for the conveyance of people,” and “vehicle” is defined as a “receptacle in which anything is placed in order to be moved.”19 Wheels would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions.
Parse the language carefully.

"One definition for chariot" Red flag for cherry pick.

"in the Oxford Dictionary" OK, so one of several definitions in the same dictionary. Guaranteed Cherry Pick.

Which dictionary? Check the footnote. ALWAYS check the footnote.
The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary: Complete Text Reproduced Micrographically, 2 vols. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1971) 1:383, 2:3599.
And what, exactly, is the Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (1971)? It's a reprint of the Second Edition of the OED (1933). Now, that's not an unreasonable choice. The OED is an excellent English Dictionary -- maybe the best English Dictionary. And "chariot" has been around for a long time and we've no reason to suspect that it's changed much in meaning. However, one of its strengths is the historical information and detailed etymologies of words. Just ask the publisher:
Now comes the Compact Edition of OED II, which captures all the wealth of scholarship found in the original edition in just one volume. The Compact is not an abridgement, but a direct photoreduction of the entire 20-volume set, with nine pages of the original on every nine-by-twelve page of the Compact (a magnifying glass comes with it). As in the Second Edition, the Compact combines in one alphabetical sequence the sixteen volumes of the first OED and the four Supplements--plus an extra five thousand new words to bring this monumental dictionary completely up to date. And it is monumental, with definitions of 500,000 words, 290,000 main entries, 137,000 pronunciations, 249,300 etymologies, 577,000 cross-references, and over 2,412,000 illustrative quotations. But as large as it is, perhaps its most important feature is its historical focus. The OED records not only words and meanings currently in use but also those that have long been considered obsolete. Moreover, under each definition of a word is a chronologically arranged group of quotations that illustrate the word's usage down through the years, beginning with its earliest known appearance. The result is a dictionary that offers unique insight into the way our language has, over the centuries, grown, changed, and been put to use.

More than 100 years in the making, The Oxford English Dictionary is now universally acknowledged as the world's greatest dictionary--the supreme arbiter on the usage and meaning of English words, a fascinating guide to the history and evolution of the language, and one of the greatest works of scholarship ever produced. The Washington Post has written that "no one who reads or writes seriously can be without the OED." Now with the Compact, the world's greatest dictionary is within the reach of anyone who wants one.
https://global.oup.com/academic/product ... us&lang=en&#

But, given that wealth of information, why does the author limit himself to one part of the definition of chariot from that dictionary? In particular, what are the odds that none of the other definitions in that dictionary define "chariot" without using the word "wheel"? Well, about zero. Just Google the word chariot and you will find that the most common definition by far is some type of wheeled cart or wagon or vehicle. Did the most comprehensive English dictionary just happen to miss the "wheel" part. Or did the author pour through the dictionary most likely to include some definition of "chariot" that does not include the word "wheel" and pick that one?

This kind of cherry picking dictionary game is dishonest pseudo-scholarship. It's also Nibleyesque -- make sure to cite a source that is not easily accessible so that no one is likely to fact check you.

But the chicanery continues. Note the last sentence of the quote: "Wheels would assist in moving but are not implicit in the definitions." I suppose this is technically true, because the vast majority of definitions of "chariot" explicitly refer to wheels. Not implicit -- explicit. Or does the author mean "are not implicit in the definitions that I cherry picked?"

Any other evidence for wheelless anythings called "chariots?" Not in the paper. Just dishonest dictionary cherry picking.

Just another of many examples of why Interpreter is a vanity publication and not a scholarly journal.
he/him
we all just have to live through it,
holding each other’s hands.


— Alison Luterman
Marcus
God
Posts: 6582
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: The Interpreter is sticking with Tapirs. Chariots aren't chariots and more.

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:58 pm
…Check the footnote. ALWAYS check the footnote….
That is the single most important lesson I have learned from any Interpreter article.
Post Reply