DCP Accuses NDE Reportees of Lying

[Dr Exiled]

It reminds me of the questionable story of all the Nephites feeling Jesus' hands, feet and side in 3 Nephi 11:15. There were supposedly 2,500 people there that supposedly felt Jesus' wounds according to 3 Nephi 17:25. If we assume conservatively 15 seconds for each encounter, as some would be overcome with emotion and wouldn't move on that quickly and some would obviously want to say a few words to the supposed risen Lord, it would have taken around 10.4 hours to do. What about bathroom breaks? Lunch breaks? Breaks for the Lord? Seems like nonsense.

So, I can see, notwithstanding the hierarchical argument that DCP pushes (only the ranking people can see the Lord), there is a practical argument to say that Mormon Jesus has other things to do rather than visit the lowly proles when they die. He needs time with his women and his spirit baby making efforts. That is a full time job, I'm sure.

Mormon Jesus will visit DCP however. He has done so much lying and obfuscating and conniving and inventing for Mormon jesus that Mormon jesus owes his lowly servant a solid.

[Gadianton]

Lol. I knew from the second I posted the OP that DCP would object to my choice of word: “lying.” Well, okay—sure. But how would he characterize it? “Imagining”? “Inventing”? “Hallucinating”? The point, as I understand him, is that people are falsely thinking that they are meeting the actual Jesus Christ during their NDEs. He’s basically saying that most of the people who claim to be meeting Jesus Christ during their NDEs are wrong, and that whoever they’re meeting is not actually Jesus.

He’s free to clarify, of course. But I think he’s painted himself into a corner here.

They are either lunatics, liars, or really did meet Jesus. DCP ruled out option three. If he objects to you characterizing him as calling them liars, then you have no option but to characterize him as calling them clinically insane.

If he still objects, and expects finer-grained modalities of human cognition and perception to explain the accounts, then he must be consistent and be open to other alternatives that explain Jesus, Joseph Smith, or the three witnesses, and at least take Dan Vogel's "Pius Fraud" theory as intelligible even if he doesn't ultimately agree. This won't happen, and so from here on out you must characterize him as calling them clinically insane. "Lunatics", as C.S. Lewis put it.

[Fence Sitter]

Why would the difficulty of seeing Jesus only apply to the dying/dead?
Couldn't his same argument be applied to all those who claim to have seen Him in real life?

I expect that, in another case, the boy in the grove, feeling strong love and acceptance emanating from a glorious person simply identified that person as the most holy figure he could name

[Doctor Scratch]

Lol. I knew from the second I posted the OP that DCP would object to my choice of word: “lying.” Well, okay—sure. But how would he characterize it? “Imagining”? “Inventing”? “Hallucinating”? The point, as I understand him, is that people are falsely thinking that they are meeting the actual Jesus Christ during their NDEs. He’s basically saying that most of the people who claim to be meeting Jesus Christ during their NDEs are wrong, and that whoever they’re meeting is not actually Jesus.

He’s free to clarify, of course. But I think he’s painted himself into a corner here.

They are either lunatics, liars, or really did meet Jesus. DCP ruled out option three. If he objects to you characterizing him as calling them liars, then you have no option but to characterize him as calling them clinically insane.

If he still objects, and expects finer-grained modalities of human cognition and perception to explain the accounts, then he must be consistent and be open to other alternatives that explain Jesus, Joseph Smith, or the three witnesses, and at least take Dan Vogel's "Pius Fraud" theory as intelligible even if he doesn't ultimately agree. This won't happen, and so from here on out you must characterize him as calling them clinically insane. "Lunatics", as C.S. Lewis put it.

Quite right. Ultimately, this episode is just yet another piece of evidence that the Mopologists are contemptuous towards others' faith. Oh, sure: they will make gestures from time to time suggesting that they are "tolerant." DCP will point out that he's spent a lot of time studying Islam, for example. But if you scratch just below the surface, you find the true reality--"the mask drops," as it were.

[Marcus]

DanielPeterson Mod rockyrd
16 hours ago
rockyrd: "I would not try to tell anyone who experienced a NDE what they experienced."

Nor would I, for the record.

Also Daniel Peterson, "for the record," telling "anyone who experienced a NDE what they experienced":

I’m simply saying that, when encountering a being of glorious light, perfect compassion, and supreme holiness, it’s entirely to be expected that near-death experiencers from Christian backgrounds would be inclined to identify that being as Jesus. And that there is actually sound theological reason (in the principle of divine investiture) for the “error.”

[drumdude]

Just look how hard it was for Joseph Smith to remember what he saw with a fully oxygenated brain.



Imagine how much harder it is to remember when your heart has stopped beating!

[Tom]

I’m simply saying that, when encountering a being of glorious light, perfect compassion, and supreme holiness, it’s entirely to be expected that near-death experiencers from Christian backgrounds would be inclined to identify that being as Jesus.

I read an account last night in which the experiencer said that he saw Ronald Reagan. One might expect that the dying person was a rock-ribbed Reagan Republican during the 1980s and that he would be inclined to identify the being of glorious light, perfect compassion, and supreme holiness he encountered in his NDE as the 40th U.S. president. But no.

I met Ronald Reagan. I never really liked the man in life. According to my grandmother, he was the devil. But, I have to tell you that he was one of the nicest guys I'd ever met. We chatted for a while. I asked him about Hinkley [sic] and he just laughed.

https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1came ... e_nde.html

[Marcus]

DanielPeterson Mod rockyrd
16 hours ago
rockyrd: "I would not try to tell anyone who experienced a NDE what they experienced."

Nor would I, for the record.

Also Daniel Peterson, "for the record," telling "anyone who experienced a NDE what they experienced":

I’m simply saying that, when encountering a being of glorious light, perfect compassion, and supreme holiness, it’s entirely to be expected that near-death experiencers from Christian backgrounds would be inclined to identify that being as Jesus. And that there is actually sound theological reason (in the principle of divine investiture) for the “error.”

Maybe DCP could apply his logic to, say, dowsing:

"for the record," telling "anyone who experienced [an apparent dowsing success] what they experienced":

I’m simply saying that, when encountering [water found after dowsing] it’s entirely to be expected that [dowsers] from [dowsing] backgrounds would be inclined to identify that [water finding] as [a dowsing success]. And that there is actually sound [neurological] reason (in the principle of [coincidence seeking, etc.]) for the “error.”

Too bad Peterson's sense of logic only kicks in when non-LDS people are involved.

[Marcus]

One last comment on this, I have a hard time believing DCP doesn't realize he is contradicting himself when he posts things like this. The suspicious part of me wonders if he does it on purpose, sort of a softball pitch to get people to respond so he has something to blog indignantly about.

A recent comment by DCP affirms that he certainly thinks others don't always believe what they write. Maybe his comment here is more autobiographical than he realizes:

My Malevolent Stalker certainly fits in that class, for instance. He's not actually stupid enough, in my judgment, really to believe everything he says.
http://disq.us/p/2ufxobk

[runtu]

Maybe I’m missing something, but what is the motivation for believing or disbelieving NDEs? It sounds like he discounts those that don’t conform to LDS teachings (I.e., that Jesus is limited by a physical body to being in one place at one time). That’s like saying I reject all mythology older than 6000 years old because I’m a young-earth creationist.