A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

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Billy Shears
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Billy Shears »

Thomas Ford wrote:The constable immediately delivered his prisoner to the Missouri agent, and returned his warrant as having been executed. The agent started with his prisoner in the direction of Missouri, but on the road was met by a number of armed Mormons, who captured the whole party, and conducted them in the direction of Nauvoo. Further on they were met by hundreds of the Mormons, coming to the rescue of their prophet, who conducted him in grand triumph to his own city. Cyrus Walker, the whig candidate for Congress, was sent for to defend him as a lawyer; a writ of habeas corpus was sued out of the municipal court; Mr. Walker appeared as his counsel, and made a wonderful exertion, in a speech of three hours long, to prove to the municipal court, composed of Joe Smith's tools and particular friends, that they had the jurisdiction to issue and act on the writ under the ordinance of their city. Mr. Hoge also, the democratic candidate, had gone to Nauvoo seeking the votes of the Mormons. He and Mr. Walker were both called upon, in a public assembly of the Mormons, to express their opinion as to the legality of this ordinance of the city giving to the municipal court power to issue writs of habeas corpus in all cases of imprisonment, and both of them gave their solemn opinion in favor of the power.

Thus the Mormons were deluded and deceived by men who ought to have known and did know better. It was a common thing for this people to be eternally asking and receiving advice. If judicious and legal advice were given to them, they rejected it with scorn, when it came in conflict with their favorite projects; for which reason all persons designing to use them, made it a rule to find out what they were in favor of, and advise them accordingly. In this mode the Mormons relied for advice, for the most part, upon the most corrupt of mankind, who would make no matter of conscience of advising them to their destruction, as a means of gaining their favor.
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/frd1854c.htm#pg316
Joseph Smith wrote:It has been asserted by the great and wise men, lawyers and others, that our municipal powers and legal tribunals are not to be sanctioned by the authorities of the State; and accordingly they want to make it lawful to drag away innocent men from their families and friends, and have them put to death by <​un​>godly men for their religion! Relative to our city charter, courts, right of Habeas Corpus, &c, I wish you to know and publish that we have all power; and if any man from this time forth says any thing to the contrary, cast it into his teeth. There is a secret in this, if there is not power in our charter and courts, then there is not power in the State of Illinois, nor in the Congress, or Constitution of the United States; for the United States gave unto Illinois her Constitution or Charter, and Illinois gave unto Nauvoo her charters, ceding unto us our vested rights, which she has no right or power to take from us: all the power there was in Illinois she gave to Nauvoo; and any man that says to the Contrary, is a fool.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ll%20power
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Good Lord! After Billy Shear's devastating response, Bryce Larsen is now claiming Billy Shears listened to the wrong podcast.
Bryce Larsen Billy Shears
4 minutes ago
I thought something sounded off in your reply. You didn't listen to the Martyrdom podcasts. You listened to at least one of the podcasts about Joseph running for president. Remember, this was all about Thomas Ford and his part in the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum? What did you do - listen until you found something you thought you could jump on? You seem to like to bring up polygamy even though it has nothing to do with the original subject.
By the way, I know the whole William Law episode so spare me.
You love to beg the question with words like "whitewashed history" and "low expectations". But you can't even follow through on the original topic. I'm done with responding to you.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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MsJack
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by MsJack »

I don't have anything to add, Billy. Just wow. Fascinating and good work.
BA, Classics, Brigham Young University
MA, American Religious History, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
PhD Student, Church History, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
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Rivendale
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Rivendale »

Billy Shears wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:09 pm
Thomas Ford wrote:The constable immediately delivered his prisoner to the Missouri agent, and returned his warrant as having been executed. The agent started with his prisoner in the direction of Missouri, but on the road was met by a number of armed Mormons, who captured the whole party, and conducted them in the direction of Nauvoo. Further on they were met by hundreds of the Mormons, coming to the rescue of their prophet, who conducted him in grand triumph to his own city. Cyrus Walker, the whig candidate for Congress, was sent for to defend him as a lawyer; a writ of habeas corpus was sued out of the municipal court; Mr. Walker appeared as his counsel, and made a wonderful exertion, in a speech of three hours long, to prove to the municipal court, composed of Joe Smith's tools and particular friends, that they had the jurisdiction to issue and act on the writ under the ordinance of their city. Mr. Hoge also, the democratic candidate, had gone to Nauvoo seeking the votes of the Mormons. He and Mr. Walker were both called upon, in a public assembly of the Mormons, to express their opinion as to the legality of this ordinance of the city giving to the municipal court power to issue writs of habeas corpus in all cases of imprisonment, and both of them gave their solemn opinion in favor of the power.

Thus the Mormons were deluded and deceived by men who ought to have known and did know better. It was a common thing for this people to be eternally asking and receiving advice. If judicious and legal advice were given to them, they rejected it with scorn, when it came in conflict with their favorite projects; for which reason all persons designing to use them, made it a rule to find out what they were in favor of, and advise them accordingly. In this mode the Mormons relied for advice, for the most part, upon the most corrupt of mankind, who would make no matter of conscience of advising them to their destruction, as a means of gaining their favor.
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/frd1854c.htm#pg316
Joseph Smith wrote:It has been asserted by the great and wise men, lawyers and others, that our municipal powers and legal tribunals are not to be sanctioned by the authorities of the State; and accordingly they want to make it lawful to drag away innocent men from their families and friends, and have them put to death by <​un​>godly men for their religion! Relative to our city charter, courts, right of Habeas Corpus, &c, I wish you to know and publish that we have all power; and if any man from this time forth says any thing to the contrary, cast it into his teeth. There is a secret in this, if there is not power in our charter and courts, then there is not power in the State of Illinois, nor in the Congress, or Constitution of the United States; for the United States gave unto Illinois her Constitution or Charter, and Illinois gave unto Nauvoo her charters, ceding unto us our vested rights, which she has no right or power to take from us: all the power there was in Illinois she gave to Nauvoo; and any man that says to the Contrary, is a fool.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ll%20power
How in the world could you be accused of listening to the wrong podcast after giving time stamps and transcripts? I have never seen this kind of absolute obtuse dishonest tactics.
drumdude
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by drumdude »

Welcome to the forum Billy! Glad to have you here.
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Gadianton
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Gadianton »

Looks like Bryce pulls a "Seatimer" and declares his allegiance to Joseph Smith no matter what.
Bryce wrote: I'll stick with the one that Joseph was a good man and a prophet of God
okay buddy, you do that.

And note he also insists:
Bryce wrote: I don't really know anything else about Thomas Ford's life (and I don't really care)
lol. He's gonna make sure DCP is right that nobody knows anything about Ford by getting first in line to know nothing about Ford.
Marcus
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Marcus »

DanielPeterson Mod Billy Shears

BS: "Why not evaluate the life of Governor Ford with the same nuance and grace that you insist others give to Joseph Smith?"

If I ever set out to evaluate the life of Governor Ford, I hope that I will do precisely that. The odds of my undertaking such an evaluation, though, are vanishingly low; I'm just not that interested in him, and I never have been. Certainly not in this thread!
http://disq.us/p/2uulope
Also Peterson, in the blog entry that started this thread, evaluating the life of Ford:
DP: "This is, putting it mildly, something that neither Governor Thomas Ford nor Thomas Sharp and his cronies expected. Once prominent in Illinois state politics, they are now remembered, to the extent that they are remembered at all, as unpleasant and dishonorable footnotes to the story of Joseph, Hyrum, and the Latter-day Saints."
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Moksha
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Moksha »

A helpful reminder of how high Joseph Smith's pedestal should be:

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads ... th2015.mp3
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
consiglieri
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by consiglieri »

I had a nice talk with Analytics on the phone yesterday.

I will give my opinion here, as I gave it to Analytics then, that to my knowledge, the First Amendment was established as the law of the land sometime prior to 1844.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: A Mopologetic Tactic Backfires Yet Again at "SeN"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

consiglieri wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:55 pm
I had a nice talk with Analytics on the phone yesterday.
I sure hope he's not trying to push Amway on people again.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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