Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

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Dr Moore
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Dr Moore »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:55 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2023 3:25 pm
This idea strikes me as a nonsensical conspiracy theory.
In that case, educate me: Why are the companies owned by general authorities’ family members always the ones to get the sweetheart contracts and not random general contractors?
Well, I know 2 of those families. They are wealthy independent of building temples. They happen to run good businesses, earned and scaled up over time. They happen to be LDS members who are trusted to build temples because they deliver high quality, and almost more importantly, a very fair price. They do all kinds of hidden things behind the scenes that other contractors won't do, such as donating land for free. None of the "exposes" have answered the one question that matters - what margin do they charge the church? The projects may be big, and with *any* margin some may cry foul at bottom line dollars, but my opinion is any random GC would charge a higher margin.

One family I know did a key part of all Utah temples prior to 1990. They had a massive operation. Temples was a small part of it, like icing on the cake that brought meaning and social status among fellow Mormons. But the family's wealth derived from running a good business, period. Also, what wealth there was has since dissipated after the founder died. It was barely enough to buy homes for his kids and pay for grandchildren to attend college. There is plenty of material to look at with mistrust, but my experience says the general contractors on temples isn't one worth getting anyone's panties in a twist.
Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr. Moore,

Did you watch Nemo’s video?

- Doc
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:37 pm
Dr. Moore,

Did you watch Nemo’s video?

- Doc
Yes. Why?
MG 2.0
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by MG 2.0 »

Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:06 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:55 am

In that case, educate me: Why are the companies owned by general authorities’ family members always the ones to get the sweetheart contracts and not random general contractors?
Well, I know 2 of those families. They are wealthy independent of building temples. They happen to run good businesses, earned and scaled up over time. They happen to be LDS members who are trusted to build temples because they deliver high quality, and almost more importantly, a very fair price. They do all kinds of hidden things behind the scenes that other contractors won't do, such as donating land for free. None of the "exposes" have answered the one question that matters - what margin do they charge the church? The projects may be big, and with *any* margin some may cry foul at bottom line dollars, but my opinion is any random GC would charge a higher margin.

One family I know did a key part of all Utah temples prior to 1990. They had a massive operation. Temples was a small part of it, like icing on the cake that brought meaning and social status among fellow Mormons. But the family's wealth derived from running a good business, period. Also, what wealth there was has since dissipated after the founder died. It was barely enough to buy homes for his kids and pay for grandchildren to attend college. There is plenty of material to look at with mistrust, but my experience says the general contractors on temples isn't one worth getting anyone's panties in a twist.
I appreciate you candor and forthrightness.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:20 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 2:37 pm
Dr. Moore,

Did you watch Nemo’s video?

- Doc
Yes. Why?
So, when Nemo claims temples are 5x more expensive than comparable projects … well, what are your thoughts on that claim?

- Doc
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Dr Moore »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:33 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2023 3:20 pm
Yes. Why?
So, when Nemo claims temples are 5x more expensive than comparable projects … well, what are your thoughts on that claim?

- Doc
Nemo never supported that statement with data. Do you think saying temples cost 5x without providing the data should be my problem to resolve, or his? I think he’s wrong. Check out the WSJ article from a couple weeks back. It’s not 5x.
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:36 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2023 1:33 am
So, when Nemo claims temples are 5x more expensive than comparable projects … well, what are your thoughts on that claim?

- Doc
Nemo never supported that statement with data. Do you think saying temples cost 5x without providing the data should be my problem to resolve, or his? I think he’s wrong. Check out the WSJ article from a couple weeks back. It’s not 5x.
Nemo sourced his claims with links on the right side of the video. Construction isn’t my in my wheelhouse, so take the information there with a grain of salt.

- Doc
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Dr Moore »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2023 10:46 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:36 am

Nemo never supported that statement with data. Do you think saying temples cost 5x without providing the data should be my problem to resolve, or his? I think he’s wrong. Check out the WSJ article from a couple weeks back. It’s not 5x.
Nemo sourced his claims with links on the right side of the video. Construction isn’t my in my wheelhouse, so take the information there with a grain of salt.

- Doc
Where does Nemo “source” his claim of 5x? Is it apples to apples, or apples to oranges?

(Hint, he takes a spurious source at its word regarding the Philadelphia temple's HVAC system that purportedly cost $2,500 psqft vs competing solutions at $400 psqft.) Whatever Nemo thinks he found at Herman Golder Co, he's looking at the data wrong. He is out of his depth here. It comes across as immature and uninformed.

Doc, you're committing the same fallacy as chapel Mormons who don't read the footnotes or interrogate the data behind leaders' claims. Go read the WSJ article. Here you have an official bid, on file and in the public record, for the entirety of the Pocatello temple. The cost was $69 million, ALL IN, for a 71,125 square foot temple. A recent temple, inflation and all. How, pray tell, does an HVAC system costing some $2,500 per square foot fit into that budget? Or $400 for that matter? Do the math brother, I'll wait. (Also, a few Google searches will show you that in no world do HVAC systems cost $400 or $2,500 per square foot for any buildings. More like $5-30. So again, whatever Nemo thinks he found, he's looking at that data wrong. I.e., the source he cites is talking about something NOT comparable to the total square footage of a building)

Nemo's work is normally interesting, and occasionally brilliant. However, his "expose" here is shoddy, poorly thought-out, and based on reckless treatment of spurious data. My two cents.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nemo takes a deep dive into the temple construction gravy train

Post by Dr Moore »

One random page at a point in time? And how about checking the current link: https://goldner.com/Mormon-temple-project. Why do you think they took down the numbers? Maybe because someone bungled those numbers? Puff pages like this aren't authoritative of anything.

drumdude, are you also blindly taking Nemo's hatchet job at face value? Do the math. Hell, I'll do it for you: $2,500 per square foot, times temple size of 61,466 square feet, equals $153,665,000 for the plumbing and HVAC.

Okay guys, if you're ready to accept this at face value, might as well head back to the pews. I have nothing more to add here.
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