Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[drumdude]

Using these sorts of things to disassociate from the church, however, has real consequences/ramifications. Each individual has to determine whether or not those consequences/ramifications are worth the separation.

This is why I noted at the start that the Mormon church is not necessary for salvation. It's questionable if the Mormon church is even sufficient for salvation. I would put my faith in Christ rather than the church. I know you think they're one in the same, but the vast majority of Christians obviously disagree.

Walking away from Mormonism is the same as walking away from 7th Day Adventism, in my mind. I think you would agree with me that 7th Day Adventism would have the same warning, and you would agree with me that it's nothing to worry about. Even though you and I haven't spent much time even asking God if 7th Day Adventism is true.

[Marcus]

Using these sorts of things to disassociate from the church, however, has real consequences/ramifications. Each individual has to determine whether or not those consequences/ramifications are worth the separation.

This is why I noted at the start that the Mormon church is not necessary for salvation. It's questionable if the Mormon church is even sufficient for salvation. I would put my faith in Christ rather than the church. I know you think they're one in the same, but the vast majority of Christians obviously disagree.

Walking away from Mormonism is the same as walking away from 7th Day Adventism, in my mind. I think you would agree with me that 7th Day Adventism would have the same warning, and you would agree with me that it's nothing to worry about. Even though you and I haven't spent much time even asking God if 7th Day Adventism is true.

And the same as walking away from Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Warren Jeffs' version of Mormonism.

[MG 2.0]

Using these sorts of things to disassociate from the church, however, has real consequences/ramifications. Each individual has to determine whether or not those consequences/ramifications are worth the separation.

This is why I noted at the start that the Mormon church is not necessary for salvation.

It is baptism that is necessary. The church has the authority to perform baptisms recognized by God. Everyone at some point or another will be able to accept or reject that baptism/covenant with full knowledge and understanding of what that means and the blessings associated with it. Other churches and belief systems that lead towards light and goodness are pointed in the right direction. Every knee will bow and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

It's questionable if the Mormon church is even sufficient for salvation.

If the church is the church restored by Jesus/God then not only is salvation available but also the keys to exaltation in the kingdom of God.

I would put my faith in Christ rather than the church. I know you think they're one in the same, but the vast majority of Christians obviously disagree.

And that’s OK. As long as they accept Jesus according to the light and knowledge that they are willing/able to live by they’ll be fine.

Walking away from Mormonism is the same as walking away from 7th Day Adventism, in my mind. I think you would agree with me that 7th Day Adventism would have the same warning, and you would agree with me that it's nothing to worry about. Even though you and I haven't spent much time even asking God if 7th Day Adventism is true.

I think that the doctrines/teachings of the CofJCofLDS as opposed to Seventh Day Adventists lead towards the light and goodness of God but with different trajectories and outcomes. I think everyone, when all is said and done, will be able to ‘choose their own adventure’, so to speak, in the afterlife. I think there will be a certain amount of ‘wiggle room’, with the caveat that the same spirit which dwells within us here will go with us beyond the grave.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

... I think everyone, when all is said and done, will be able to ‘choose their own adventure’, so to speak, in the afterlife. I think there will be a certain amount of ‘wiggle room’....

So, Mormonism is just one of many different approaches to life, and all are simply beliefs. Whatever works, works. I'm glad the Mormon approach has evolved into this. It's apparently much more humane than it used to be.

[MG 2.0]

... I think everyone, when all is said and done, will be able to ‘choose their own adventure’, so to speak, in the afterlife. I think there will be a certain amount of ‘wiggle room’....

So, Mormonism is just one of many different approaches to life…

Well, yes. Obviously.

…and all are simply beliefs.

Well, yes and no.

Whatever works, works.

Well, yes. In the here and now anyway. But some things (beliefs and practices) may work ‘better’ and be ‘truer’ than others. But you, as an individual, don’t have to subscribe to or believe that. You can subscribe to ‘relative truth(s)’ and probably get by just fine. More and more people are choosing this path. That being so, I believe, as I’ve already pointed out, that God blesses all of His children in one way or another according to their desires/righteousness.

I'm glad the Mormon approach has evolved into this. It's apparently much more humane than it used to be.

It should be pointed out, however, that the truth claims of the CofJCofLDS remain the same today as they did at the point of origin in the modern era.

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

The list could go on.

But yes, I think the approach of the church and its members has gradually evolved/shifted into becoming more humane and understanding towards others. Acceptance of individuals and their differences while at the same time not condoning or accepting certain actions/beliefs.

Love the sinner, hate the sin, so to speak.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

The problem is there’s a lot more than that list.

1) Believe Jews sailed to the Americas in 600BC
2) Pay tithing to the LDS corporation so it can be used to build shopping malls that sell alcohol
3) Don’t practice oral sex during the 70s when the church taught it was a sin
4) Miss out on temple blessings before 1978 if you are black
5) Don’t get baptized if you are the child of a gay parent between the years 2015 and 2018

On and on and on. If the church ever was restored, it is a j need of another restoration. In my opinion.

[MG 2.0]

The problem is there’s a lot more than that list.

1) Believe Jews sailed to the Americas in 600BC
2) Pay tithing to the LDS corporation so it can be used to build shopping malls that sell alcohol
3) Don’t practice oral sex during the 70s when the church taught it was a sin
4) Miss out on temple blessings before 1978 if you are black
5) Don’t get baptized if you are the child of a gay parent between the years 2015 and 2018

On and on and on. If the church ever was restored, it is a j need of another restoration. In my opinion.

Another restoration would only result in the list of core beliefs that I listed. There wouldn’t be any difference.

So the question is whether or not a list such as yours should supersede and/or cancel out the core beliefs. The problem, as I see it, is that when individuals become consumed with those things that are peripheral to the core teachings and practices of the church they then walk out the door.

And that’s unfortunate, in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I think Mormons need to get closer to Christ and farther from the brethren. They ignore Jesus at their peril.

I think you might want to take the time to listen to this conference talk. In its totality. I’m not dissing the freedom that you have to express your opinion. I’m glad you have an opinion.

But I do think you’re really off base. And that’s my opinion.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

Or:

https://youtu.be/WYadwZ5PgNI?feature=shared

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Love the sinner, hate the sin, so to speak...

Hmm. No, that's not consistent with your previous comments.

. .As long as they accept Jesus according to the light and knowledge that they are willing/able to live by they’ll be fine....

You continue to obfuscate.

[MG 2.0]

...Love the sinner, hate the sin, so to speak...

Hmm. No, that's not consistent with your previous comments.

. .As long as they accept Jesus according to the light and knowledge that they are willing/able to live by they’ll be fine....

You continue to obfuscate.

Contextually if you go back and read what I’ve said…again…you will see that there is no contradiction and/or obfuscation in what I’ve said. Marcus, you’re doing it again. Taking what someone has said and then cut and pasting what has been said out of context and creating meaning that wasn’t intended by the writer.

You’re doing what the Tanners used to do…quite well, mind you. Until they were called on it.

This is a common tactic used by those that would rather not engage with the actual substance of an argument or conversation and/or the totality of what is being presented/said.

Pease don’t this again. I’ve called you on it before. It just takes up bandwidth/space.

Thanks.

Regards,
MG