Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[canpakes]

…
So the question is whether or not a list such as yours should supersede and/or cancel out the core beliefs. The problem, as I see it, is that when individuals become consumed with those things that are peripheral to the core teachings and practices of the church they then walk out the door.

And that’s unfortunate, in my opinion.

Forgot to ask a couple more.

3. What is the main flaw with simply not adhering to a particular church’s full list of ‘core beliefs’?

4. Can you rank the Church’s core beliefs by importance? If not, why?

[MG 2.0]

Another restoration would only result in the list of core beliefs that I listed. There wouldn’t be any difference.

So the question is whether or not a list such as yours should supersede and/or cancel out the core beliefs. The problem, as I see it, is that when individuals become consumed with those things that are peripheral to the core teachings and practices of the church they then walk out the door.

And that’s unfortunate, in my opinion.

Regards,
MG

1. I see one issue being that drumdude’s list calls into question #6 on your own list.

Which is:

Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

I won’t go back and forth with you on this one. It is in the eye of the beholder. I know you have your views on this. For right now I will simply say that if the rest of the things in my list are core doctrines and practices and are ‘true’ and somewhat unique within the restored church then I don’t see it as unreasonable that God spoke through a prophet(s). As I mentioned recently on this thread, once things have gone off the rails, so to speak, it’s highly unlikely that man is going to get the things of God right. On his own anyway.

Without some help.

Thus, prophets are necessary. Unless you have a better idea? I’m not saying this to mean. I’m serious. If there was an apostasy of sorts (my Wikipedia link) then how would you suggest getting the train back on the tracks. As it is/was (see link) men/women haven’t been able to do it on their own apparently.

That’s a significant issue for the LDS Chirch specifically.

You are right. It all depends on whether or not the church is built on the foundation of prophets and apostles with Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone.

2. Why would there need to be another restoration?

Again, see earlier Wikipedia link. I know that within Christendom many folks look upon the priesthood of the believers as being ‘one church’. And that Christianity in all of its various forms and flavors is Christ’s Church.

That doesn’t make sense to me scripturally and in a practical sense.

And why was one supposedly required for Mormonism, aside from instituting some additional rituals?

Mainly, I would say, to get the doctrine straight, get the authority online, and to correct corrupted doctrines/teachings/practices.

And it is important, obviously, to determine whether or not man can take this authority upon themselves or whether keys to bestow authority are necessary. Given from God Almighty. Directly from those that held/hold the authority.

Thanks for your response and bringing up some concerns that you have.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

…
So the question is whether or not a list such as yours should supersede and/or cancel out the core beliefs. The problem, as I see it, is that when individuals become consumed with those things that are peripheral to the core teachings and practices of the church they then walk out the door.

And that’s unfortunate, in my opinion.

Forgot to ask a couple more.

3. What is the main flaw with simply not adhering to a particular church’s full list of ‘core beliefs’?

Getting off track and moving towards apostasy.

4. Can you rank the Church’s core beliefs by importance? If not, why?

Previously listed:

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

The list could go on. This isn’t all inclusive

They are all integral to ‘True Doctrine’.

I think the order I listed them isn’t too far off. God lives and Jesus is the Christ has to be right up there at the top though. Without there REALLY being a ‘Father and the Son’ the rest of the list becomes rather superfluous. Of no real meaning.

So canpakes, what do you believe? Are you religious? Are more or less a follower of science and reason exclusively? Are you open to there being a creator God and that we are part of that creation? Were you raised in a religious home?

As I’ve mentioned, I am much more interested in what people believe than in what they don’t believe. It’s already a ‘known’ here on this board that most folks don’t believe in the Restoration for one reason or another…but what DO you believe? What fills your bucket in that department?

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

Evidently not.

[MG 2.0]

6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

Evidently not.

On another thread a poster linked to a FAIR presentation by Daniel Peterson called “Understanding History Backwards”. I think this presentation is relevant to your negative view of latter day prophets.

The question at the end of the day to be asked, in my opinion is, “Is the church organized and operating according to the mind and will of the Lord?” In other words, if there is a God in heaven and He is guiding and directing the church might we look backwards to see His hand in the way things have transpired? Including decisions made on a day to day basis by ordinary men and women and the ultimate outcome of those decisions.

I think as we look back over the distance we might conclude that the church is where it needs to be. All is going according to plan. Temples dot the earth. Families all over the world are being sealed for eternity. Ordinances for the living and the dead continue with valiant and worthy souls willing to volunteer and sacrifice their time for others. Humanitarian efforts being carried out throughout the world with the means and ways to do so in place. Young people being raised and nurtured with a faith in God as their Father and Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. Consolidated meeting schedules. Come Follow Me in place for home worship during Covid and families are the stronger/better for it. I could go on.

For all intents and purposes as we look back we can see the hand of the Lord guiding things along so that now we are able to observe the church operations moving forward in majesty and power albeit subject to the realities of the world and those that oppose the restored church.

One of those oppositional restraints are the combined forces of those that fail to heed and believe the words of the prophets as they exercise their mandate/stewardship to move the church forward during troubled times. But even at that as we look back even fifteen years ago or so we can see that the church is stronger and the people more resilient as storms are conquered and inch by inch mile by mile progress is made. Sadly leaving many of those with less resiliency behind with hopes that they will return to the fold.

The prophets continue to lead and guide the church in the direction the Lord would have it go. Many folks get frustrated and upset in the present not really thinking about the future and that God might have clearer vision than they do.

But looking backwards can make all the difference.

I hope I didn’t chase drumdude away or that he felt any untoward influence from some of the bellyachers that temporarily tried to derail what was a pretty good conversation. If you decide not to come back, drumdude, and respond to the one or two unanswered questions I asked, that’s OK. Although, truth be told, I was quite interested in your responses thus far.

The more we can understand each other the better.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

Evidently not.

As with a number of others here on this board I’m pretty clear on what you don’t believe but really have no idea what you, canpakes, and others DO believe. What is it that fills your bucket to give your life meaning on a deep level?

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

Evidently not.

On another thread a poster linked to a FAIR presentation by Daniel Peterson called “Understanding History Backwards”. I think this presentation is relevant to your negative view of latter day prophets.

The question at the end of the day to be asked, in my opinion is, “Is the church organized and operating according to the mind and will of the Lord?” In other words, if there is a God in heaven and He is guiding and directing the church might we look backwards to see His hand in the way things have transpired? Including decisions made on a day to day basis by ordinary men and women and the ultimate outcome of those decisions.

I think as we look back over the distance we might conclude that the church is where it needs to be. All is going according to plan. Temples dot the earth. Families all over the world are being sealed for eternity. Ordinances for the living and the dead continue with valiant and worthy souls willing to volunteer and sacrifice their time for others. Humanitarian efforts being carried out throughout the world with the means and ways to do so in place. Young people being raised and nurtured with a faith in God as their Father and Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. Consolidated meeting schedules. Come Follow Me in place for home worship during Covid and families are the stronger/better for it. I could go on.

For all intents and purposes as we look back we can see the hand of the Lord guiding things along so that now we are able to observe the church operations moving forward in majesty and power albeit subject to the realities of the world and those that oppose the restored church.

One of those oppositional restraints are the combined forces of those that fail to heed and believe the words of the prophets as they exercise their mandate/stewardship to move the church forward during troubled times. But even at that as we look back even fifteen years ago or so we can see that the church is stronger and the people more resilient as storms are conquered and inch by inch mile by mile progress is made. Sadly leaving many of those with less resiliency behind with hopes that they will return to the fold.

The prophets continue to lead and guide the church in the direction the Lord would have it go. Many folks get frustrated and upset in the present not really thinking about the future and that God might have clearer vision than they do.

But looking backwards can make all the difference.

I hope I didn’t chase drumdude away or that he felt any untoward influence from some of the bellyachers that temporarily tried to derail what was a pretty good conversation. If you decide not to come back, drumdude, and respond to the one or two unanswered questions I asked, that’s OK. Although, truth be told, I was quite interested in your responses thus far.

The more we can understand each other the better.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for your opinion on some topic I didn't write about.

None of this is evidence of revelation.

[Morley]

Evidently not.

As with a number of others here on this board I’m pretty clear on what you don’t believe but really have no idea what you, canpakes, and others DO believe. What is it that fills your bucket to give your life meaning on a deep level?

Regards,
MG

Pray tell, what is it that I don't believe? (Other than, you know, me probably not believing that modern-day CoJCoLDS prophets receive and disseminate revelation from the Lord.)

[MG 2.0]

6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

Evidently not.

On another thread a poster linked to a FAIR presentation by Daniel Peterson called “Understanding History Backwards”. I think this presentation is relevant to your negative view of latter day prophets.

The question at the end of the day to be asked, in my opinion is, “Is the church organized and operating according to the mind and will of the Lord?” In other words, if there is a God in heaven and He is guiding and directing the church might we look backwards to see His hand in the way things have transpired? Including decisions made on a day to day basis by ordinary men and women and the ultimate outcome of those decisions.

I think as we look back over the distance we might conclude that the church is where it needs to be. All is going according to plan. Temples dot the earth. Families all over the world are being sealed for eternity. Ordinances for the living and the dead continue with valiant and worthy souls willing to volunteer and sacrifice their time for others. Humanitarian efforts being carried out throughout the world with the means and ways to do so in place. Young people being raised and nurtured with a faith in God as their Father and Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. Consolidated meeting schedules. Come Follow Me in place for home worship during Covid and families are the stronger/better for it. I could go on.

For all intents and purposes as we look back we can see the hand of the Lord guiding things along so that now we are able to observe the church operations moving forward in majesty and power albeit subject to the realities of the world and those that oppose the restored church.

One of those oppositional restraints are the combined forces of those that fail to heed and believe the words of the prophets as they exercise their mandate/stewardship to move the church forward during troubled times. But even at that as we look back even fifteen years ago or so we can see that the church is stronger and the people more resilient as storms are conquered and inch by inch mile by mile progress is made. Sadly leaving many of those with less resiliency behind with hopes that they will return to the fold.

The prophets continue to lead and guide the church in the direction the Lord would have it go. Many folks get frustrated and upset in the present not really thinking about the future and that God might have clearer vision than they do.

But looking backwards can make all the difference.

I hope I didn’t chase drumdude away or that he felt any untoward influence from some of the bellyachers that temporarily tried to derail what was a pretty good conversation. If you decide not to come back, drumdude, and respond to the one or two unanswered questions I asked, that’s OK. Although, truth be told, I was quite interested in your responses thus far.

The more we can understand each other the better.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for your opinion on some topic I didn't write about.

None of this is evidence of revelation.

I think that it is. But thanks for your response, such as it is. Limited.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

I think that it is. But thanks for your response, such as it is. Limited.

Regards,
MG

What in your writeup could not have been accomplished by some corporate board of directors?