Three Questions (Split from, ‘Vogel Responds …’)

[drumdude]

We’re in the same boat we have always been. We have to decide how to build the just society. How to create the city on the hill. And if there is an afterlife, we can be judged according to the world we left behind for our children.

It’s the only world we know exists, and the only one we know we are leaving behind for them.

Secular Christian. OK.

That’s cool.

Regards,
MG

I think that’s a good way to put it. Atheist doesn’t describe the fact that I was born into and raised Christian, and still appreciate many of those values and teachings of Christ.

[Moksha]

I’m assuming that you are one of those folks that believe the SL LDS Church may have at one time been ‘true’ in its earlier ‘makeup’ but then fell into apostasy? And now it’s not true?

Using Bayesian Theory, we can surmise Res Ipso Facto, that anything begun as a lie must forever remain true.
Now, pass the Postum...

[I Have Questions]

MG, when I say "evidently not," to your claim of modern-day revelation, I'm asking for the evidence that what you say is true.

I'll make it easy for you. What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my mother-in-law?

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

[I Have Questions]

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

You’re wrong on some of these.

Salvation (according to the Church) is granted to everyone regardless of ordinances. It’s what Jesus died for.

All people will be resurrected (according to LDS teachings) without exception.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are NOT necessary for salvation.

Temple Marriage is a requirement for exaltation, in addition to what you listed.

Weren’t you paying attention during Sunday School?

[Morley]

MG, when I say "evidently not," to your claim of modern-day revelation, I'm asking for the evidence that what you say is true.

I'll make it easy for you. What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my mother-in-law?

Here is what modern prophets are up against:

The Bible claims that written, inerrant, authoritative revelation ended with Jesus and his apostles:

"You should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord by your apostles" (2 Peter 3:2).
"Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the scriptures..." (2 Peter 3:15-16).
"Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Prov. 30:6).
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it" (Deut. 4:2).
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life..." (Rev. 22:18-19).
Why is this so important? Because false teachers will inevitably come with a different gospel:

The apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus whom we have not preached... a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted" (2 Cor. 11:4).
Paul also warns: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).

The world doesn’t want prophets. A surprisingly large number of Christians don’t. What does that say about everyone else?

In Luke 4 we read:

And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also hear in thy country. 24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Prophets have been ridiculed and persecuted throughout history. It is no different now.

I'm not sure what your point is. I asked for evidence to back your claim that modern prophets provide revelation.

So the question might be asked, what do we expect of a prophet in our day? A day in which religion and Christianity are either under attack or looked at as old wife’s tales.

I think a prophet today is the key holder. The one that stands at the head, under the supervision of the Father and the Son to lead and guide the church organization and steer it through to these modern times keeping the ship afloat. The captain. Decisions for course correction and movements one way or the other are directed by the Lord through the prophet. He holds the priesthood keys.

Your question reminds me of those that ridiculed the Savior when they “they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, “Prophesy to us!”

Day to day Jesus went about doing good and healing. Bringing souls to salvation. That is what a prophet spends his time day to day doing.

But, again, if there is a course correction or doctrinal pronouncement or policy change to be made, it will either come through the prophet or be ratified by him.

This is a whole different subject. I'm not spitting on Jesus or anyone else. I'm not asking anyone to prophesy. I'm merely asking you provide evidence that modern prophets of Mormonism provide revelation.

May I say that I believe your expectations to be unrealistic?

If you're saying it's unrealistic for me to expect you to either backup your claims, or if you can't do that, that you be honest enough to admit you were wrong--then perhaps you're right.

Day to day the leaders of the church guide the church. They bless the lives of others. They teach Truth.

You put a big T on truth, this time. I guess this is not the 'Islam is true but Mormonism is truer' small t truth, you posited earlier. Seems like a pretty postmodern, sliding scale kind truth.

If you are looking for something fantastical you might be disappointed. Especially, as I mentioned at the beginning, in a world which would just as well not have a prophet.

I'm not looking for anything but the evidence of ongoing revelations that you said were one of the major cornerstones of the restoration.

A prophet asks people to do things they would rather not do. Pure and simple. Unless they are inclined to faith.

I don't think the prophets asked me to do anything very difficult. You see, I've never wanted more than one earring in each ear, anyway.

MG, you claimed ongoing revelation is a major tenet of the restoration.

I'll remind you of what I'm asking: What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my old Uncle Edgar?

[canpakes]

1. I see one issue being that drumdude’s list calls into question #6 on your own list.

Which is:

Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.

I won’t go back and forth with you on this one. It is in the eye of the beholder. I know you have your views on this. For right now I will simply say that if the rest of the things in my list are core doctrines and practices and are ‘true’ and somewhat unique within the restored church then I don’t see it as unreasonable that God spoke through a prophet(s). As I mentioned recently on this thread, once things have gone off the rails, so to speak, it’s highly unlikely that man is going to get the things of God right. On his own anyway.
…

Those last two lines relate to the question both in the way that they so often do not get things right, or don’t seem to be able to speak to issues of importance, as opposed to more trivial things.

It’s also fair to note that prophets appear to self-select. There’s no visible process to it aside from the first fellow proclaiming their hotline to God, then choosing his mates to be co-prophets, who then continue to vote in their own replacements. As you say above, “it’s highly unlikely that man is going to get the things of God right”. And yet this system is arguably completely dependent on mortals deciding who are prophets, with no better proof of the process than any other group or individual who’d claim the same.

2. Why would there need to be another restoration?
And why was one supposedly required for Mormonism, aside from instituting some additional rituals?

Mainly, I would say, to get the doctrine straight, get the authority online, and to correct corrupted doctrines/teachings/practices.

And it is important, obviously, to determine whether or not man can take this authority upon themselves or whether keys to bestow authority are necessary. Given from God Almighty. Directly from those that held/hold the authority.

Historically speaking, most of the ritual seems to have been instituted haphazardly, even from the beginning with BotD (after Smith was questioned about his claimed vision of recently-passed brother Alvin being within the Celestial Kingdom) on through with simpler matters (WoW, after Emma’s complaint about having to clean up chaw spit from Church leadership meetings).

None of the new routines seem to have a known precedent under/mention by Christ, at least as far as we understand the history behind him.

I’m not asking you to defend any of that. I’ve encountered the reasoning so often given for this (“it wasn’t the right time before …”), but that doesn’t really seem to jive with things.

So canpakes, what do you believe? Are you religious? Are more or less a follower of science and reason exclusively? Are you open to there being a creator God and that we are part of that creation? Were you raised in a religious home?

As I’ve mentioned, I am much more interested in what people believe than in what they don’t believe. It’s already a ‘known’ here on this board that most folks don’t believe in the Restoration for one reason or another…but what DO you believe? What fills your bucket in that department?

I was raised Catholic, which - in our family - basically meant being ‘religious’ for an hour on Sunday, then just following through with the commonsense application of the Golden Rule for the rest of the week’s hours. : D

I ‘believe’ this much:

1. I believe that there very well could be a force much greater than anything that we can comprehend at work within the universe, but that I’m completely content to acknowledge that I can neither confirm it or explain it if one exists, nor would I need to in order to find meaning in life and conduct myself appropriately.
2. I believe that no religion has everything ‘right’ - I.e., no particular religion could be claimed to be ‘true’, and that to do so would demonstrate great hubris given the mortal interpretations of all of them.
3. Relating to #2 and Mormonism specifically, I believe that several of the Church’s claims or doctrinal beliefs are actually counterproductive to the mission of fulfilling Christianity’s claimed promise.
4. I believe that what most folks would describe as the core ‘moral behavior’ beliefs of their own favored religion could have easily and expectedly evolved without any attachment to any particular religion or deity, and that they did so out of the basic needs and realities of co-existence and community during ancient days.

There are a few other things, too (‘jello should never have crunchy things or raisins in it’, etc.), but that covers the majority of it.

[MG 2.0]

MG, when I say "evidently not," to your claim of modern-day revelation, I'm asking for the evidence that what you say is true.

I'll make it easy for you. What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my mother-in-law?

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

That “obfuscation” you accuse me of is actually a clear answer. Whether you have eyes to see and ears to hear is another matter. I have laid out what I believe the role of a prophet to be in the modern era. I would suggest you go back and read my rather long winded posts a second or third time. Read for meaning. Read for comprehension.

Your response “Just more obfuscating” says it all. You haven’t put any time and thought, at all, into what I’ve been saying. You have a one track mind and can't see the forest for the trees. You see/hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest. This seems to be a common pattern with some of those that I engage with here. But not others. Very few, however. I could talk until I’m blue in the face and not be heard.

As I’ve done at other times I would simply invite others to read my words as they are written and determine whether or not what I have to say invites deeper thought and introspection in regards to those things being discussed. As it is, you will find certain individuals intent on twisting meaning, take things out of context and apply unintended meaning…for their own purposes. When you see someone claim ‘obfuscation’ (in essence saying, “Nothing to see here”, move on.) with little or no comment on the ‘meat’ of what is being said then “Houston, we have a problem”.

IHAQ, your responses remind me, quite clearly, as to why it is unproductive for either of us to try and carry on a conversation with each other.

To those that are reading this thread without participating may I suggest reading the conversations in this thread between me and drumdude and also canpakes to determine/see what an actual back and forth civil conversation looks like.

It is frustrating to not actually be heard. My hope, however, is that there are those that do have eyes to see and ears to hear and are open to alternative ways of viewing issues and topics without relying on a narrow and critical lens. A myopic view which allows for very little, if any, peripheral vision.

One needs to remember that the critics have closed off their minds and everything that comes into their ‘lens’ now comes through with a certain predetermined worldview. Of course they will say the same thing in regards to those that believe. It is left up to the ‘honest in heart’ to determine where truth is coming from. Honesty requires openness and transparency.

In this thread, drumdude and canpakes actually revealed a little bit of themselves. I appreciate that. Others will play ‘hard to get’ and act the critic without really engaging ideas and putting a little ‘vulnerability’ on the line.

Engaging with that sort is more or less a waste of time. I need to keep that in mind as I determine whether or not to engage with those that are simply out to ‘score points’ rather than seek understanding.

Another long winded response. I apologize.

More obfuscation, right?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’ll remind you of what I'm asking: What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS made that could not have been made by my old Uncle Edgar?

No reminder needed. I’ve already answered. Just not in the way you might want/expect.

Regards,
MG

[Morley]

No specific response to this as yet. Just more obfuscating.

That “obfuscation” you accuse me of is actually a clear answer. Whether you have eyes to see and ears to hear is another matter. I have laid out what I believe the role of a prophet to be in the modern era. I would suggest you go back and read my rather long winded posts a second or third time. Read for meaning. Read for comprehension.

Indeed, and thank you. I think everyone read your treatise on what you consider to be the role of a prophet. It didn't mention anything about revelation, however--though you had specifically listed revelation by modern prophets as one of the core truth claims of the LDS Church.

It should be pointed out, however, that the truth claims of the CofJCofLDS remain the same today as they did at the point of origin in the modern era.

1. God lives.
2. Jesus is the Christ and our Savior and Redeemer.
3. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation and exaltation.
4. We will be judged by our faith and works as we accept the grace given by Christ through His Atonement.
5. Ordinances are a necessary part of God’s plan. They are ‘entry points’ along the path that leads towards salvation/exaltation.
6. Prophets receive revelation for our day from the Lord.
7. We are accountable for our own sins.
8. Life is eternal and all mankind, with some exceptions, will be resurrected.

(My bold.)

My question was concerning item number 6. I requested evidence that LDS prophets are disseminating revelation in these modern times.

What revelations in the last 100 years have the prophets of the CoJCoLDS received, that could not have also been determined by my general contractor brother? It should be pretty easy for you to make a list of these.

[MG 2.0]

canpakes, thanks for your response. I realize that we will have differing views on selecting a prophet and the methodology that God might institute/use to do so.

I ‘believe’ this much:

1. I believe that there very well could be a force much greater than anything that we can comprehend at work within the universe, but that I’m completely content to acknowledge that I can neither confirm it or explain it if one exists, nor would I need to in order to find meaning in life and conduct myself appropriately.
2. I believe that no religion has everything ‘right’ - I.e., no particular religion could be claimed to be ‘true’, and that to do so would demonstrate great hubris given the mortal interpretations of all of them.
3. Relating to #2 and Mormonism specifically, I believe that several of the Church’s claims or doctrinal beliefs are actually counterproductive to the mission of fulfilling Christianity’s claimed promise.
4. I believe that what most folks would describe as the core ‘moral behavior’ beliefs of their own favored religion could have easily and expectedly evolved without any attachment to any particular religion or deity, and that they did so out of the basic needs and realities of co-existence and community during ancient days.

There are a few other things, too (‘jello should never have crunchy things or raisins in it’, etc.), but that covers the majority of it.

Thank you for opening up a bit. I’ve talked with others that would be on the same page as your #1. Where I differ, I suppose, is that I believe God has a ‘plan’ and is able/willing to reveal either parts or a greater whole of that plan. We’re not alone, in my opinion.

If it wasn’t for the LDS Church I would very possibly be on the same page as you…and Carl Sagan.

As it is, my primary modus operandi that I’ve evolved into is moving forward with a belief in a creator God and that this God has a plan/purpose for each of His children and we can discern/know what that plan/purpose is for us. Uniquely. That plan/purpose may or may not include knowledge of and/or acceptance of ‘Mormonism’.

Or it may. That’s why I believe we should all just get along without devolving into hyperbole, hypersensitivity, or inaccuracy.

Your 2,3,4 are interesting and I believe from a unique perspective,one way or the other, hold water. I appreciate your sharing.

Regards,
MG