If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

I’m pleased to note that, in the introductory material of each of these books published by the renowned Oxford University Press, the authors clearly declare their belief in a historically authentic Book of Mormon. Thus, for example, Richard Bushman:

“A logical path for a Latter-day Saint growing up in the modern world, especially one who became a historian, would be to grow out of my childhood beliefs. The plates would be spiritualized and their meaning made allegorical. But my life did not follow that course. The plates have continued to have a hold on me, and the same is true for other Mormons. Polls show that more than three-quarters of American Mormons believe that “the Book of Mormon is a literal, historical account,” a likely indicator of belief in the plates. This makes a big difference in one’s outlook on the world. With the plates comes an angel and divine intervention in ordinary human lives. The plates imply a world where God is an active agent in human affairs in opposition to the skepticism that has eroded religion for the past two hundred years.”

Does this also strike anyone else as a profoundly weak and embarrassing argument? Coming from someone as well regarded as Bushman?

I essentially agree with DCP. The plates literally give substance to the meaning of the universe and our place in it. Say whatever you want about them, they are KEY to evidence of God and his workings. The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.

The plates were the key artifact that led credence to the whole restoration narrative.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

I essentially agree with DCP. The plates literally give substance to the meaning of the universe and our place in it. Say whatever you want about them, they are KEY to evidence of God and his workings. The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.

I agree with both DCP and Bushman on "the plates" as you've framed it.

I've stated plenty of times my belief in the potential faithful fiction Book of Mormon model. A summary summary: The Book of Mormon could be accepted as fiction yet the plates and angel accepted as real. The miraculous story with plates is profoundly significant. Being a historical text, or an ancient semi- or non-historical text is less important. The essential importance is the proof of miracle, which is what digging for horses etc. would in principle, provide. But Skousen really undermines the whole thing by making it an Early Modern English production. You don't need translators in the spirit world, fictional authors in the spirit world work just fine. And that's because the "proof" of Early Modern English still ranks the Book of Mormon as a miracle, entirely irrespective of any historical accuracy or ancient reality. It's the status of a miracle that is important. I'd love for Bushman to register on this forum to discuss -- I'll bet I could convince him. Specifically, his sly and calculated wording equates "literal, historical account" with "the plates", falls apart. I agree with him on the existence of "real plates". It may be theoretically possible to have a miracle without plates, but so far, I see no indications of such a construction by Mormon apologists. On the other hand, the apologists over many decades have inexorably led the way to undermining the historical or even ancient necessity of the Book of Mormon.

[MG 2.0]

I essentially agree with DCP. The plates literally give substance to the meaning of the universe and our place in it. Say whatever you want about them, they are KEY to evidence of God and his workings. The story around the obtaining and concealment of the plates is almost stranger than fiction. Why Joseph would go to so much trouble for a ‘prop’ is something I think needs to be honestly entertained.

I agree with both DCP and Bushman on "the plates" as you've framed it.

I've stated plenty of times my belief in the potential faithful fiction Book of Mormon model. A summary summary: The Book of Mormon could be accepted as fiction yet the plates and angel accepted as real. The miraculous story with plates is profoundly significant. Being a historical text, or an ancient semi- or non-historical text is less important.

If the plates and the angel are real I think that’s pretty much all we need to know. It’s difficult to imagine a scenario where an angel delivers the plates and then ‘all bets are off’, so to speak. If Joseph was brought up to a certain point I don’t think God is going to leave him in the lurch without providing the means to translate the record. Everything else is peripheral.

I suppose the question is whether or not God would have Joseph translate a fictional tale that bears witness of its own historicity. That, on its face, doesn’t seem to make sense.

Joseph, knowing that he had an actual ‘artifact’ delivered by an angel couldn’t indefinitely ignore them or treat them lightly. As it was there was a period of time where he basically did just that…but then he was brought back online.

I’m happy to know that we agree on the integral part that the plates played. Without them I think we would have a MUCH more difficult time if we were simply relying on seer stones.

The artifact is crucial. The plates potentially open up the wide expanse of eternity.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If golden plates and an angel are real,
Then what more could we possibly need?
A message from God, so pure and so clear,
A testament to His love and His creed.

The golden plates, a record so old,
Of ancient peoples and stories untold.
The angel Moroni, a messenger sent,
To guide us along, and never relent.

If the golden plates and the angel are real,
Then we know that God's love is revealed.
He has spoken to us, in a way so profound,
And shown us the path to true happiness found.

So let us cherish this gift from above,
And follow the teachings of the Book of Love.
With gratitude deep, and hearts full of cheer,
For the golden plates and the angel so dear.

For if the golden plates and the angel are real,
Then what more could we possibly feel?
Than peace and contentment, and joy without end,
As we follow the path that God does commend.

[drumdude]

If — Joseph Smith’s account of his First Vision is true, and if the Book of Mormon is genuine inspired scripture, many other important conclusions follow. There is, for example, a personal God. Jesus Christ is his atoning Son, who rose from the dead. The Bible is God’s word. Life continues beyond the grave. We are morally accountable. Joseph Smith is a prophet, a credible and reliable witness to divine things. God’s true church, accompanied by divine priesthood authority, has been restored to the earth. And so forth.

But, even then — for some, at least — there remains another decision-point that can pose a problem: Suppose that we’ve concluded, yes, that there is a personal God, that Jesus Christ is his atoning Son who rose from the dead, that Joseph Smith is a prophet, that God’s true church, accompanied by divine priesthood authority, was restored to the earth. The question then arises, Which, of the churches today that claim to possess that priesthood authority and to represent the Restoration that began with Joseph Smith, is the real one?

That is why it’s so pivotally important to revisit the story of the rise of the Twelve to leadership after the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

We would very much welcome your help in bringing this project to full realization

Who exactly does Daniel think he is helping to convince?

[MG 2.0]

If — Joseph Smith’s account of his First Vision is true, and if the Book of Mormon is genuine inspired scripture, many other important conclusions follow. There is, for example, a personal God. Jesus Christ is his atoning Son, who rose from the dead. The Bible is God’s word. Life continues beyond the grave. We are morally accountable. Joseph Smith is a prophet, a credible and reliable witness to divine things. God’s true church, accompanied by divine priesthood authority, has been restored to the earth. And so forth.

But, even then — for some, at least — there remains another decision-point that can pose a problem: Suppose that we’ve concluded, yes, that there is a personal God, that Jesus Christ is his atoning Son who rose from the dead, that Joseph Smith is a prophet, that God’s true church, accompanied by divine priesthood authority, was restored to the earth. The question then arises, Which, of the churches today that claim to possess that priesthood authority and to represent the Restoration that began with Joseph Smith, is the real one?

That is why it’s so pivotally important to revisit the story of the rise of the Twelve to leadership after the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

We would very much welcome your help in bringing this project to full realization

Who exactly does Daniel think he is helping to convince?

Honestly? I don’t think that there is much, if anything, that would convince most critics.

But as I’ve said, the plates and the angel are KEY. And there is good reason to think that the plates existed. Now, we just have to get you to be open to the possibility that an angel of God delivered them.

But then, that would change EVERYTHING, wouldn’t it?

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Who exactly does Daniel think he is helping to convince?

Honestly? I don’t think that there is much, if anything, that would convince most critics.

But as I’ve said, the plates and the angel are KEY. And there is good reason to think that the plates existed. Now, we just have to get you to be open to the possibility that an angel of God delivered them.

But then, that would change EVERYTHING, wouldn’t it?

Regards,
MG

Forget critics, would it convince anyone not already convinced?

I don’t think so.

[MG 2.0]

Honestly? I don’t think that there is much, if anything, that would convince most critics.

But as I’ve said, the plates and the angel are KEY. And there is good reason to think that the plates existed. Now, we just have to get you to be open to the possibility that an angel of God delivered them.

But then, that would change EVERYTHING, wouldn’t it?

Regards,
MG

Forget critics, would it convince anyone not already convinced?

I don’t think so.

This is the weakest spot for the critics. It’s pretty much avoided or side stepped as you have done.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

Honestly? I don’t think that there is much, if anything, that would convince most critics.

But as I’ve said, the plates and the angel are KEY. And there is good reason to think that the plates existed. Now, we just have to get you to be open to the possibility that an angel of God delivered them.

But then, that would change EVERYTHING, wouldn’t it?

Regards,
MG

Verifiable physical evidence the Book of Mormon peoples actually existed would just about do the job of convincing most critics. Sure, there'd still be questions to answer and puzzles to resolve, but actually proving the peoples existed most critics in their tracks.

[MG 2.0]

Honestly? I don’t think that there is much, if anything, that would convince most critics.

But as I’ve said, the plates and the angel are KEY. And there is good reason to think that the plates existed. Now, we just have to get you to be open to the possibility that an angel of God delivered them.

But then, that would change EVERYTHING, wouldn’t it?

Regards,
MG

Verifiable physical evidence the Book of Mormon peoples actually existed would just about do the job of convincing most critics. Sure, there'd still be questions to answer and puzzles to resolve, but actually proving the peoples existed most critics in their tracks.

The plates are the ‘artifact’ that act as the KEY to everything. That is what Bushman was saying if I’m understanding him correctly. I think DCP is essentially saying the same thing. Now I suppose that the critics could say that the plates were found ‘by accident’ and take the angel out of the story, but that would be conjecture on their part. The facts seem to point towards plates. If an angel delivered them to Joseph Smith then the restoration story and all that comes of it then becomes a matter of fact.

I honestly think that those that disregard the evidence of the plates and what the ramifications are have other reasons for either evading and/or disregarding their import.

The plates and the angel, by association, demonstrate/prove the fact that God exists and Jesus is the Christ. The controversies of the ages are nullified.

In response to an earlier post of mine gadianton said:

The miraculous story with plates is profoundly significant.

It is. The plates are the KEY to everything. I think Bushman nailed it.

Regards,
MG