That the plates were real is factual. Why? Joseph Smith struggled mightily to secure and protect them. Even at great cost and sacrifice.
Why would he do that if the plates were merely a prop?
Are you suggesting that all of the stuff that went on in regards to the plates previous to the translation was one big charade/act?...
Lol. No, your story is not factual. All the things you suggested are exactly what one would do to convince an audience something is real. It is really quite naïve to insist those actions are proof that something is real.
I am under no illusion that whatever a believer might say will penetrate your heart and mind. But for the sake of those who are open to investigating the factual happenings/experiences that we have been able to partially retrieve from history, I again point you to this piece:
Lol. No, your story is not factual. All the things you suggested are exactly what one would do to convince an audience something is real. It is really quite naïve to insist those actions are proof that something is real.
I am under no illusion that whatever a believer might say will penetrate your heart and mind. But for the sake of those who are open to investigating the factual happenings/experiences that we have been able to partially retrieve from history, I again point you to this piece:
And again ask the question: Why did Joseph Smith undergo all that he and his family went through for what some folks are now calling a ‘prop’?
Wouldn’t it have been a LOT easier to just write the book and bypass all the hardship that resulted from having the plates?...
You must have missed my first answer, my second answer, tagriffy's first answer and their second answer, malkie's affirmation of my answer, and riverdale's response to both tagriffy's and my answer.
But sure, we can start over. Here's my first answer, which includes the quote that answers your question:
Smith was no different than any other con artist or magician putting on show. From a magician's blog:
They use props to help them connect with the audience and make the show more engaging. The magician's goal is to create an entirely different world from reality. They want to make it as believable as possible so that the audience can suspend disbelief and be completely immersed in this alternate world.
MG wrote:Wouldn’t it have been a LOT easier to just write the book and bypass all the hardship that resulted from having the plates?
Ahh...so quick we are to forget the lesson of Richard Bushman, young tadpole.
Bushman's point was that nobody would care about a story that wasn't real history and that wasn't packaged into something like the plates that imply "God is an active agent in human affairs".
In other words, the answer to your question is that Joseph didn't have the option of simply making a book without some kind of tangible, grandiose claim to go along with it. All the manufactured drama and slight-of-hand was absolutely necessary in order to generate interest in his claims.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
A recent interview with Richard Bushman and his wife in regards to his new book and other sundry matters. He talks about the plates at around the 10:20 mark.
I know that Vogel and others have their ideas to explain the plates and everything surrounding their history. But I think that it is also important to not instinctively throw out the account/history portrayed by folks such as Andrew Hedges.
I don’t know that I have much else to say on the matter other than what I’ve already said.
I am under no illusion that whatever a believer might say will penetrate your heart and mind. But for the sake of those who are open to investigating the factual happenings/experiences that we have been able to partially retrieve from history, I again point you to this piece:
And again ask the question: Why did Joseph Smith undergo all that he and his family went through for what some folks are now calling a ‘prop’?
Wouldn’t it have been a LOT easier to just write the book and bypass all the hardship that resulted from having the plates?...
You must have missed my first answer, my second answer, tagriffy's first answer and their second answer, malkie's affirmation of my answer, and riverdale's response to both tagriffy's and my answer.
But sure, we can start over. Here's my first answer, which includes the quote that answers your question:
Smith was no different than any other con artist or magician putting on show. From a magician's blog:
Tagriffy just pointed out that they illustrated this quite clearly on p 3, and i agree.
The Roman Catholic Church is god's true church on earth. That's a fact!
Otherwise how can we explain all of the Catholic saints (and sinners) who died for their faith, plus all of the others who ran through the woods carrying 60lb or so of scriptures in their frock coats?
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details. Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
I've gone back to read your other posts since I offered my thoughts and I think you're transforming Bushman's claim into something it isn't.
"The artifact is crucial."
"If the plates and the angel are real I think that’s pretty much all we need to know."
Crucial to what? To the urgency of the story. We agree on this. We also agree that if the plates are real "that's all we need to know."
The problem is you have a double-edged sword.
Yes, sacrificing so much for an audatious claim would appear to add credibility to the sincerity of the claim.
However, Bushman's point provides a reason aside from sincerity that explains the audatious claim: The grandiose claim is the selling point for audience interest.
You now have a two-edged sword. Yes, the necessity of a fantastic claim to draw member interest cuts against liberals who want to make the Book of Mormon apocrapha, but it also cuts against the default assumption that such an elaborate claim must have been out of sincerity.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
Obviously, mental midget has never read No Man Knows My History
One of the first books I read written by a church antagonist.
Thanks for your inspired input, as always.
Time to move on when Doc shares his profound pearls of wisdom/insight.
Can’t even begin to top him.
Have a good week everyone.
Regards,
MG
If you had (and you have not, you’re lying as usual), you would’ve known where Joseph Smith got the idea of golden plates. Your Bushman references are desperate flailings of a dying religion.
