If plates then God

[Physics Guy]

Having most people think there were plates made the whole story more interesting—to most people. Everyone still seems to feel that way today. Nobody wants to have to believe in Smith peering into his hat at a rock. Everyone wants to picture him poring carefully over ancient gold plates with a miraculous eyeglass. The picture with the plates is much simpler and more impressive. The bit with the stone sounds both hokey and phoney.

Having most people think there were plates also made it harder for any other con artists to mount a competing scam by claiming to have their own revelations. With his own golden plates safely attested and sent back to Heaven, Smith could run right up to any rival prophets and demand to see their golden plates. If the rivals had fake plates, Smith could expose them—he knew a thing or two about fake plates. If the rivals didn't claim to have any plates, Smith could dismiss them for failing to meet the standard he had established for prophets, of having ancient gold plates. In fact it was many years before any rivals tried to produce relics to compete with Smith's claims. The tactic was obvious enough to be an effective deterrent to anyone smart enough to pose any threat. Smith had locked the door behind himself with those plates.

That's why the plates that no-one actually read are so convincing for skeptics. There are obvious reasons why a scam could use something like plates, without anyone having to read them, while the reasons why a real Restoration needed plates that no-one actually read are much less clear.

[MG 2.0]

Having most people think there were plates made the whole story more interesting—to most people. Everyone still seems to feel that way today. Nobody wants to have to believe in Smith peering into his hat at a rock. Everyone wants to picture him poring carefully over ancient gold plates with a miraculous eyeglass. The picture with the plates is much simpler and more impressive. The bit with the stone sounds both hokey and phoney.

Having most people think there were plates also made it harder for any other con artists to mount a competing scam by claiming to have their own revelations. With his own golden plates safely attested and sent back to Heaven, Smith could run right up to any rival prophets and demand to see their golden plates. If the rivals had fake plates, Smith could expose them—he knew a thing or two about fake plates. If the rivals didn't claim to have any plates, Smith could dismiss them for failing to meet the standard he had established for prophets, of having ancient gold plates. In fact it was many years before any rivals tried to produce relics to compete with Smith's claims. The tactic was obvious enough to be an effective deterrent to anyone smart enough to pose any threat. Smith had locked the door behind himself with those plates.

That's why the plates that no-one actually read are so convincing for skeptics. There are obvious reasons why a scam could use something like plates, without anyone having to read them, while the reasons why a real Restoration needed plates that no-one actually read are much less clear.

I’ve got to jump back in to respond to this post.

You are starting with a presupposition that the plates weren’t real. There is more evidence that they were than they weren’t. But even at that, I’m surprised that you, of all people, would take such a strong preemptive strike at ‘imaginary’ plates.

I think this demonstrates what I’ve been saying throughout this thread. The plates are key. Do away with the plates and…BINGO…you’re left with the story of a rock in a hat.

Why do you think that Joseph Smith experienced so much opposition after having claimed to have received the plates and was forced to literally move them from place to place with the help of others? You are apparently one of those that takes the view of Joseph creating an elaborate charade to fool others into thinking he had plates.

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms

Four years in the making? And duping/pulling Emma right along with him the whole time? It doesn’t seem to me that she was a dupe.

My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity—I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.

https://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files ... 0smith.pdf

You have to jump through too many hoops to disregard what seems to be the most obvious. There were plates. If plates, then we have to explain how they came to be and what their purpose was.

But it’s super hard to get past the whole angel thing, isn’t it? Especially as an academic/scientist.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You have to jump through too many hoops to disregard what seems to be the most obvious. There were plates.

No, that hasn't been established as fact.

...But it’s super hard to get past the whole angel thing, isn’t it? ...

Lol. Only for those who also find it "super hard to get past the whole" Sasquatch thing.

Or Tolkien's Middle Earth thing.

Or the leprechaun's pot of gold thing.

Or the Loch Ness Monster thing.

Or the abducted by UFO thing.

Or the Kinderhook plate thing.

Or the dowsing rod thing.

Or the psychic employed by Ballard thing.

Or the tooth fairy thing.

Or the Santa Claus thing.

Or the Easter Bunny thing.

The list of nonsense some people can't get past is long.

[MG 2.0]

You have to jump through too many hoops to disregard what seems to be the most obvious. There were plates.

No, that hasn't been established as fact.

Besides what we have in the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product…what would be acceptable to you as factual evidence that the plates existed? After all, they are not available for your perusal.

Is a ‘hands on’ demonstration/evidence the only evidence you would ever accept? If so, you’re out of luck.

If the plates WERE available for your perusal what impact do you think that would have on religious FAITH ?

I understand why you are so adamant in trying to explain away the plates. Potentially it would distort your present worldview. And you are fully invested in that worldview. The physical evidence that you demand, that would be satisfactory for you, is highly unlikely.

The plates and what they represent are critically more important than your list.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

No, that hasn't been established as fact.

Besides what we have in the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product…what would be acceptable to you as factual evidence that the plates existed? After all, they are not available for your perusal.

Is a ‘hands on’ demonstration/evidence the only evidence you would ever accept? If so, you’re out of luck.

If the plates WERE available for your perusal what impact do you think that would have on religious FAITH ?

I understand why you are so adamant in trying to explain away the plates. Potentially it would distort your present worldview. And you are fully invested in that worldview. The physical evidence that you demand, that would be satisfactory for you, is highly unlikely.

The plates and what they represent are critically more important than your list....

No, they are exactly the same. And as for this:

"...the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product..."

Please. There are far more ufo, sasquatch, nessie, etc. "references" and "witness accounts," etc. than the plates have. Most people are intelligent enough to not be taken in by such nonsense, but others, like you, are suckers for such fables.

[MG 2.0]

Besides what we have in the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product…what would be acceptable to you as factual evidence that the plates existed? After all, they are not available for your perusal.

Is a ‘hands on’ demonstration/evidence the only evidence you would ever accept? If so, you’re out of luck.

If the plates WERE available for your perusal what impact do you think that would have on religious FAITH ?

I understand why you are so adamant in trying to explain away the plates. Potentially it would distort your present worldview. And you are fully invested in that worldview. The physical evidence that you demand, that would be satisfactory for you, is highly unlikely.

The plates and what they represent are critically more important than your list....

No, they are exactly the same. And as for this:

"...the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product..."

Please. There are far more ufo, sasquatch, nessie, etc. "references" and "witness accounts," etc. than the plates have. Most people are intelligent enough to not be taken in by such nonsense, but others, like you, are suckers for such fables.

Thanks for your response. I really don’t have any other response to your contributions other than what I’ve already said.

I would be interested in your thoughts, however, specifically having to do with the questions/concerns in regards to Joseph’s protecting the plates and all that this entailed. Questions I’ve asked but have been ignored in the main. Also, what your thoughts may be in regards to Emma’s thoughts/testimony that I posted a portion of. Part of a larger interview in which the posted statement was encapsulated.

Thoughts? Was she duped? An accomplice?

Also, you didn’t answer my question in regards to ‘evidence’.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

No, they are exactly the same. And as for this:

"...the historical record…references to the plates, protecting the plates, witness accounts of the plates…and the resulting product..."

Please. There are far more ufo, sasquatch, nessie, etc. "references" and "witness accounts," etc. than the plates have. Most people are intelligent enough to not be taken in by such nonsense, but others, like you, are suckers for such fables.

Thanks for your response. I really don’t have any other response to your contributions other than what I’ve already said.

I would be interested in your thoughts, however, specifically having to do with the questions/concerns in regards to Joseph’s protecting the plates and all that this entailed. Questions I’ve asked but have been ignored in the main. Also, what your thoughts may be in regards to Emma’s thoughts/testimony that I posted a portion of. Part of a larger interview in which the posted statement was encapsulated.

Thoughts? Was she duped? An accomplice?

Also, you didn’t answer my question in regards to ‘evidence’.

Regards,
MG

You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.

Having most people think there were plates made the whole story more interesting—to most people. Everyone still seems to feel that way today. Nobody wants to have to believe in Smith peering into his hat at a rock. Everyone wants to picture him poring carefully over ancient gold plates with a miraculous eyeglass. The picture with the plates is much simpler and more impressive. The bit with the stone sounds both hokey and phoney.

Having most people think there were plates also made it harder for any other con artists to mount a competing scam by claiming to have their own revelations. With his own golden plates safely attested and sent back to Heaven, Smith could run right up to any rival prophets and demand to see their golden plates. If the rivals had fake plates, Smith could expose them—he knew a thing or two about fake plates. If the rivals didn't claim to have any plates, Smith could dismiss them for failing to meet the standard he had established for prophets, of having ancient gold plates. In fact it was many years before any rivals tried to produce relics to compete with Smith's claims. The tactic was obvious enough to be an effective deterrent to anyone smart enough to pose any threat. Smith had locked the door behind himself with those plates.

That's why the plates that no-one actually read are so convincing for skeptics. There are obvious reasons why a scam could use something like plates, without anyone having to read them, while the reasons why a real Restoration needed plates that no-one actually read are much less clear.

[bolding added.]

Not that convincing , but yes, i agree with your explanation as to why a scam would need a story about plates.

[MG 2.0]

You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.

This has been an interesting conversation, such as it is. I’m willing to let my words stand up against yours at this point.

I feel as though I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.

... I’m willing to let my words stand up against yours at this point...

Absolutely.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.

This has been an interesting conversation, such as it is. I’m willing to let my words stand up against yours at this point.

I feel as though I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Regards,
MG

You’re thick as pig crap, aren’t you?

Stupid hick.

- Doc