The trajectory of Close Encounter reports is similar to the trajectory of the plates. On the one hand, it's the actual, real presence of aliens that intrigues people, while on the other, offering real proof and keeping the buzz going is difficult when one may not actually have any evidence or the evidence is limited, or you're just making it up.
And so there is a dynamic between maintaining the mystical thing in reality and spiritualizing in order to drag out or protect the story. There are people who were quit upset at paying thousands of dollars for a mountain retreat with Stephen Greer where they were promised that they would communicate with alien spaceships, and then they get there and the communication ends up being psychic rather than with an actual spaceship. Perhaps that's not so different than the witnesses who saw the plates in a vision rather than "really" see them, and when some members pick up on that; that Joseph Smith didn't just pull the cover off and behold, the plates, it's a big letdown.
Every person of faith must fight this battle within themselves: how much fantastical story do you need to hold your interest vs. how much spiritualizing will you accept to protect the indefensible?
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
Thanks for your response. I really don’t have any other response to your contributions other than what I’ve already said.
I would be interested in your thoughts, however, specifically having to do with the questions/concerns in regards to Joseph’s protecting the plates and all that this entailed. Questions I’ve asked but have been ignored in the main. Also, what your thoughts may be in regards to Emma’s thoughts/testimony that I posted a portion of. Part of a larger interview in which the posted statement was encapsulated.
Thoughts? Was she duped? An accomplice?
Also, you didn’t answer my question in regards to ‘evidence’.
Regards,
MG
You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.
I probably don’t need to point this out, but I will anyway. Marcus, you very rarely answer questions posed to you. That’s what makes you SO uninteresting. Folks try to engage you to little or no avail. At least I’ve found that to be true.
That’s why periodically I’ll mention that going back and forth with you is literally a waste of time.
Don’t take that personally. It’s just the way it is.
You provided no "evidence," and your other questions and concerns have been addressed repeatedly.
I probably don’t need to point this out, but I will anyway. Marcus, you very rarely answer questions posed to you. That’s what makes you SO uninteresting. Folks try to engage you to little or no avail. At least I’ve found that to be true.
That’s why periodically I’ll mention that going back and forth with you is literally a waste of time.
Don’t take that personally. It’s just the way it is...
Lol. Your latest trolling technique-- project your stance onto others.
It's getting pretty obvious however, as you've accused so many posters here of responding--gasp!!-- exactly the way you do!
It's also obvious that when you respond multiple times to the same post, you are just trolling for attention. Given that, let's move on:
The trajectory of Close Encounter reports is similar to the trajectory of the plates. On the one hand, it's the actual, real presence of aliens that intrigues people, while on the other, offering real proof and keeping the buzz going is difficult when one may not actually have any evidence or the evidence is limited, or you're just making it up.
And so there is a dynamic between maintaining the mystical thing in reality and spiritualizing in order to drag out or protect the story. There are people who were quit upset at paying thousands of dollars for a mountain retreat with Stephen Greer where they were promised that they would communicate with alien spaceships, and then they get there and the communication ends up being psychic rather than with an actual spaceship. Perhaps that's not so different than the witnesses who saw the plates in a vision rather than "really" see them, and when some members pick up on that; that Joseph Smith didn't just pull the cover off and behold, the plates, it's a big letdown.
Every person of faith must fight this battle within themselves: how much fantastical story do you need to hold your interest vs. how much spiritualizing will you accept to protect the indefensible?
Good question. MG will fall for anything, but i would be interested in finding out how a more typical believer would reconcile this issue.
So you don’t have to answer any questions. Par for the course.
Marcus, when you consistently infiltrate threads and fill them up with essentially nothing I would define that as trolling. The questions I asked physics guy are now downstream because of this behavior of yours. As it is, we’ve accomplished absolutely nothing since you showed up besides useless banter and spitting into the wind on your part.
Blowing up threads in this manner takes a certain skill set. But over time it becomes rather transparent what you are doing.
I’m still hoping to hear from physics guy.
The whole plates thing seems to be one of those things some folks would rather not discuss.
Those people that flew into the twin towers suffered immense prosecution as they hit into concrete, steel and glass. But I guess a long drawn out suffering somehow galvanizes the truth claim. Suffering seems to be the go to catch phrase to legitimize truth claims. Caligula awful. Suck less and just realize the bamboozle.
Having most people think there were plates also made it harder for any other con artists to mount a competing scam by claiming to have their own revelations. With his own golden plates safely attested and sent back to Heaven, Smith could run right up to any rival prophets and demand to see their golden plates. If the rivals had fake plates, Smith could expose them—he knew a thing or two about fake plates. If the rivals didn't claim to have any plates, Smith could dismiss them for failing to meet the standard he had established for prophets, of having ancient gold plates. In fact it was many years before any rivals tried to produce relics to compete with Smith's claims. The tactic was obvious enough to be an effective deterrent to anyone smart enough to pose any threat. Smith had locked the door behind himself with those plates.
The emphasis on faith instead of knowledge or evidence is always weird to me now. What is it about faith that is so emphasized when it is faith that keeps Catholics Catholic, Keeps Jews as Jews, Baptists and Baptists, ALL of whom Mormons will not allow in their own temples and actually believe they have lesser authority and truth than they themselves, yet it is based on the same lame premise, faith? This demonstrates faith is the entire wrong emphasis, but those on the inside, of whatever religion, just cannot see it.
Faith never has changed the probability of something being true or not. Only actual evidence can do so. Faith can never take the place of evidence or lack of it. It is a mere place holder it appears to me.
Having most people think there were plates made the whole story more interesting—to most people. Everyone still seems to feel that way today. Nobody wants to have to believe in Smith peering into his hat at a rock. Everyone wants to picture him poring carefully over ancient gold plates with a miraculous eyeglass. The picture with the plates is much simpler and more impressive. The bit with the stone sounds both hokey and phoney.
Having most people think there were plates also made it harder for any other con artists to mount a competing scam by claiming to have their own revelations. With his own golden plates safely attested and sent back to Heaven, Smith could run right up to any rival prophets and demand to see their golden plates. If the rivals had fake plates, Smith could expose them—he knew a thing or two about fake plates. If the rivals didn't claim to have any plates, Smith could dismiss them for failing to meet the standard he had established for prophets, of having ancient gold plates. In fact it was many years before any rivals tried to produce relics to compete with Smith's claims. The tactic was obvious enough to be an effective deterrent to anyone smart enough to pose any threat. Smith had locked the door behind himself with those plates.
That's why the plates that no-one actually read are so convincing for skeptics. There are obvious reasons why a scam could use something like plates, without anyone having to read them, while the reasons why a real Restoration needed plates that no-one actually read are much less clear.
I’ve got to jump back in to respond to this post.
You are starting with a presupposition that the plates weren’t real. There is more evidence that they were than they weren’t. But even at that, I’m surprised that you, of all people, would take such a strong preemptive strike at ‘imaginary’ plates.
I think this demonstrates what I’ve been saying throughout this thread. The plates are key. Do away with the plates and…BINGO…you’re left with the story of a rock in a hat.
Why do you think that Joseph Smith experienced so much opposition after having claimed to have received the plates and was forced to literally move them from place to place with the help of others? You are apparently one of those that takes the view of Joseph creating an elaborate charade to fool others into thinking he had plates.
Four years in the making? And duping/pulling Emma right along with him the whole time? It doesn’t seem to me that she was a dupe.
Emma wrote:My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity—I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.
You have to jump through too many hoops to disregard what seems to be the most obvious. There were plates. If plates, then we have to explain how they came to be and what their purpose was.
But it’s super hard to get past the whole angel thing, isn’t it? Especially as an academic/scientist.
