Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Shulem]

Could there be a summary of each parallel

Hey kiddies, how about a song?



Mormon was a prophet just a little boy
Daddy gave him treats and a happy toy
When he was eleven a tapir rode away
Off to Zarehemla to live another day

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet...

Mormon was a lad who got a little bored
When he turned fifteen he got to see the Lord
He saw in a vision God was a Person
If you can believe it’s only an assertion

Follow the prophet; don’t go astray...

Mormon was a man who learned to read and write
Sometimes he got angry and often in a fight
In four and twenty years he went to climb a hill
He translated plates because of Ammaron’s will

Follow the prophet; he knows the way...

[Shulem]

QUESTION: Why would Mormon feel a need to tell future readers (beginning in 1829) that he was "TEN YEARS OF AGE" when he started to get a decent education, was sober minded, and quick to learn? (Mormon 1:2)

ANSWER: What does age have to do with the price of tea in China Zarahemla? Who cares that he was only 10 years old! We don't need to know that! This piece of trivia was written in the script for one purpose only: Stroke Joseph Smith's ego! In addition, it was a sly means to pulls the wool over the eyes of his readers and stroke Smith's inner need to feed his ego with delusions of grandeur. The story would have been more biblical had Mormon simply said he was a lad or a youth like Samuel or David of old without mentioning a specific age. But see how all of this corresponds with the life of the real author pretending to be the character in the story.

It's so blatantly obvious to me. Gotcha, Joe!

Ya gotta love it.

[Shulem]

I consulted Google-god and found, like Don Bradley, other commentators have also noticed implications and parallels of the 11-15-24 combination but explain it from a faithful point of view. They lack the understanding that Smith was simply writing himself into a fictitious story of his own making:

We learn that Mormon was really Mormon, Jr. John M. Butler has found some remarkable similarities between Mormon, Jr., and Joseph Smith, Jr. Brother Butler suggests that Mormon was a type for the Prophet Joseph ("The 'Author' and the 'Finisher' of the Book of Mormon," in The Book of Mormon, Fourth Nephi Through Moroni, From Zion to Destruction, edited by Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., a FARMS publication, 61-68). Let us consider a few of the similarities.

Both were sober, thoughtful, and bright as children (Mormon 1:2; Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, 67). Both families moved to other locations when the boys were ten to eleven years old (Mormon 1:6; Joseph Smith-H 1:3). Both saw the spiritual deficiencies of their people and importuned God on the matter. Both had "First Visions" at ages fourteen and fifteen (Mormon 1:14- 15; Joseph Smith-H 1:7, 10-20). Both men were tutored by older prophets who had hid up records for their future use-Mormon by Ammoron and Joseph by Moroni. Both were also tutored by angels-Mormon by the three translated Nephite disciples (Mormon 8:10-11), and Joseph by numerous heavenly messengers (H. Donl Peterson, "Personages Who Appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith," in Joseph Smith: The Prophet, The Man, edited by Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate, Jr. 184-86). Both were charismatic leaders of their people. Both were men of large stature (Mormon 2:1; George Q. Cannon, Life of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 19) and strong enough to protect the plates from falling into the hands of evil people (see Mormon 6:6). Although both were large and physically fit as youths, neither Mormon nor Joseph received the plates appointed them until they were spiritually mature enough to perform the labors required of them. Several years of testing and training went by after Ammaron and Moroni revealed to their respective charges the missions they were to fulfill regarding the record of the Nephites. Mormon was told to record his observations of Nephite society on the plates when he was twenty-four years old (Mormon 1:3-4). Joseph translated the plates of Mormon and the small plates of Nephi when he was in his twenty-fourth year (Joseph Smith-H 1:66-67) and published them to the world in March of 1830, shortly after his twenty-fourth birthday.

You were right, Gadianton & Kishkumen !

[Shulem]

And so, a battle is being waged!

Mormon was a type for the Prophet Joseph vs. Joseph was a type for the Prophet Mormon

Pick your poison!

I think it can be effectively demonstrated that Joseph Smith and his companions said nothing about a type, one way or another. I think it can be safely said that this matter is a result of modern constructs through thoughtful study and careful calculation in comparing numbers and circumstances in the Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith's own life. The problem for apologists is they once again find themselves isolated from what Smith never said and condemned by what he did say because he was the ultimate author, redactor, and translator for the Book of Mormon whether they like it or not.

[Shulem]

Mormon was a type for the Prophet Joseph vs. Joseph was a type for the Prophet Mormon

So, the apologists (including Bradley) are left with the idea that God was somehow the instigator in creating a type in which Mormon would foreshadow the future life of Joseph Smith. That is a tall order to fill but there is nothing in the text to suggest that God was behind the making of a type -- nothing is said in that regard. Therefore, it's the wild imagination of modern apologists who assume that God was somehow behind this thing without apprising either Mormon or Joseph about a type. The apologists are left holding an empty bag having no evidence whatsoever to support their assertion!

Smith was the author, redactor, and translator and never said anything about Mormon being a type to himself and nobody was more qualified to know these things than Joseph Smith! The fact he said nothing at all to anyone in Kirtland or Nauvoo is a strong indicator that Smith didn't want anyone to think about it, one way or another. So, today's apologists are left holding an empty bag. They got nothing!

[Shulem]

On the other hand, the critics (Shulem) have everything in their bag to show that Smith must have understood the type and kept his mouth shut and said nothing about it because he didn't want anyone to know. Think about it. Smith was twenty four (24) when he translated (dictated) the story about Mormon. He was the one who came up with age eleven (11) in which Mormon migrated southward with his family. He is the one who came up with age fifteen (15) when Mormon had his visionary experiences. He was the one who came up with age twenty four (24) when Mormon got the plates in which to translate.

Does anyone here think Smith didn't notice the type (11-15-24)?

[Shulem]

Conversations between Joseph & Oliver while translating:

JOSEPH: "And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me."

OLIVER: Hold on Joe, I ran out of ink. Let me fill my bottle . . . it is well, please continue.

JOSEPH: "Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people."

OLIVER: Brother Joseph, I find it coincidental that Mormon uncovered plates with engravings buried on a hill and he translated at age twenty four, the same as you.

JOSEPH: Yes, Oliver, it is a coincidence.

OLIVER: Shall we continue?

JOSEPH: "And it came to pass that I, being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla."

OLIVER: Fancy that brother Joseph, your ma told me you moved to Palmyra when you were eleven years old.

JOSEPH: Yes, that's quite a coincidence.

OLIVER: It sure is. Continue with the translating, please.

JOSEPH: "And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."

OLIVER: Brother Joseph, I recall when we first met that you claimed to see Jesus when you were fifteen after having digested sacred mushrooms. Do you have any of those mushrooms?

[Shulem]

John M. Butler, The "Author" and the "Finisher" of the Book of Mormon, p. 61-67

Let's take a peek at Butler's parallels between Mormon & Smith and focus only on the 11-15-24 combination:

And I would like to draw parallels between the lives of Joseph Smith and the prophet Mormon. In the Church we speak of Jesus Christ as the author and finisher of our faith (Moroni 6:4; Heb 12:2). This paper examines and compares Mormon as an "author" and Joseph Smith as a "finisher" of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps no other prophet personifies the preparation and achievements of Joseph Smith better than the prophet Mormon. He was a type for the Prophet Joseph—foreshadowing Joseph's life and important mission.

A type by age and circumstance in direct association is a flying leap into outer space or rather from the mind of Joseph Smith! The type & foreshadowing used to make these parallels shows that it was Smith that was making them and engineered them in real time. The apologist is grasping at straws in order to save testimony and refuse to realize and accept that it was Smith making it all up out of thin air.

Next, in Mormon's introduction of himself, we learn that he "was carried by [his] father into the land southward" when he was 11 years old (Mormon 1:6). Here again Joseph Smith's life follows Mormon's motif. Joseph went south with his father from Vermont to New York in his "tenth year or thereabouts" (Joseph Smith-H 1:3).

The apologist must conclude that God migrated an ancient 11-year old boy some 1,500 years before Smith was born just so he could engineer a type.

Not long after moving to Zarahemla, Mormon saw that "there were no gifts from the Lord [among the people], and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief (Mormon 1:14). Being of "a sober mind," he called upon God when he was 15 years of age and "was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus" (v 15). Mormon experienced a personal visit from the Lord, like Samuel at Shiloh (see 1 Sam 3). Joseph Smith states that he was visited of the Lord in his fifteenth year (Joseph Smith-H 1:7). He, too, "tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus."

The apologist wants us to embrace the fantastic idea that Mormon would receive a vision of Jesus in his 15th year even as Joseph Smith claimed because God had predesigned all of this in order to glorify and foreshadow Joseph Smith's life as a type! But anyone with their head screwed on correctly should instantly realize that it was Smith making a type of Mormon in which to glorify himself with his big ego!

Their 24th year was an important one in the lives of both these prophets. Mormon was told to record his observations of Nephite society on the plates when he was 24 (Mormon 1:3-4). Joseph translated those words when he was in his 24th year (see Joseph Smith-H 1:66-67) and published them to the world in March of 1830, shortly after his 24th birthday.

Why didn't Joseph Smith explain this type and shadow to the Church after publishing the Book of Mormon? Why are we hearing this nonsense from apologists in our day? The apologists are just as guilty of making crap up as Joseph Smith was in making his crap up. And two wrongs don't make a right.

Butler, you are a crackpot.

[Shulem]

Nobody can say that Joseph Smith ever publicly compared himself to Mormon or that Mormon was compared to him. There is absolute silence on this matter -- whatever Smith thought of Mormon was his private affair. He expanded on the meaning of the name Mormon as having Egyptian roots but never likened Mormon as a type or shadow with regard to the prophecy of the coming of the choice seer. His son Moroni also said nothing. Nothing to that effect was ever mentioned in the text of the Book of Mormon. Thus we see the apologetic construct to turn the 11-15-24 into a genuine prophecy or a type is pure fantasy. What we are left with are the fantasies of Joseph Smith's own mind. It certainly makes mother Smith's comments about her young son's fantasies more meaningful:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their mode of warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

[Shulem]

What we are left with are the fantasies of Joseph Smith's own mind. It certainly makes mother Smith's comments about her young son's fantasies more meaningful:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their mode of warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

The point about young Joseph pretending to know about details, circumstances, and happenings of the ancient culture of the American Indians is quite telling in and of itself. Note that mother Smith said his recitals were amusing -- full of imagination and chock-full of everything one would need to know about what took place in ancient times. Young Joseph put himself in those very circumstances by using and tapping into his imagination -- making stuff up out of thin air. He did it with such conviction and in such great detail that it seemed as if he was living in those times and had firsthand experience living with the ancient Indians. And at this point in Joseph's life he was still but a boy! So, in that respect he would have imagined himself living with the Indians as a boy -- even a young Nephite prophet such as Mormon who grew into a man and became a great warrior and leader of the people!

Think about it. These recitals young Joseph gave were nothing more than fantasies of the same caliber and impact which he gave to Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery -- simply more stories of imagining himself living among the Indians. All of this, of course, was completely based on fiction.