If plates then God

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I am aware of the rock in the hat now, but it was not taught as facilitating translation when i was young.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... anslation/

Regards,
MG

Get crackin’, Marcus! Only 190 pages that MG didn’t read, but you! You! You should read that quickly-google nonsense.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Also, why did god allow the Book of Abraham papyri, D&C discourse notes and minutes, masonic rituals, and iStone to remain, all of which are subjected to scrutny, but not the gold plates, which weren’t even necessary?

Yeah. Makes sense.

[drumdude]

Also, why did god allow the Book of Abraham papyri, D&C discourse notes and minutes, masonic rituals, and iStone to remain, all of which are subjected to scrutny, but not the gold plates, which weren’t even necessary?

Yeah. Makes sense.

It's the goldilocks porridge of evidence. Not too warm, not too cold. Just lukewarm enough to keep pesky doubting souls like yours out of the Celestial Kingdom.

[MG 2.0]

Also, why did god allow the Book of Abraham papyri, D&C discourse notes and minutes, masonic rituals, and iStone to remain, all of which are subjected to scrutny, but not the gold plates, which weren’t even necessary?

Yeah. Makes sense.

Each of those are not hard fast/direct evidence of God intervening in the affairs of men.

The plates are that evidence…IF they were delivered by an angel. But we don’t have them.

So you’re left with these other ‘evidences’ which are available but are open to critical analysis and inspection that can lead one way or the other.

So you have the critics and the apologists.

If the plates were available would you be more likely to entertain the thought that they were delivered by an angel…of God?

It would do something for your faith which is severely lacking, wouldn’t it? Oh wait, then it wouldn’t be faith, it would be knowledge.

Knowledge vs. faith. A whole other topic that could be discussed.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

This being the case, the question is why should I care how the evidence came about.

So what I think I hear you saying is it doesn’t make any difference whether the plates were real or not.

Literally real. Not mythologically real.

Do I have that right?

Regards,
MG

It's imprecise. I specifically worded my response to say "a physical reality or a visionary reality" precisely becuase I do not exclude the visionary from the category of "reality." As Dumbledore told Harry at their last meeting, "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" So whether they are physical or visionary or some kind of combination thereof, the plates are literally real.

I'm not concerned with banal details like whether plates can be seen with one's natural eyes or can only be seen with the spiritual eye. I'm concerned with the meaning of the plates.

[Marcus]

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... anslation/

Regards,
MG

Get crackin’, Marcus! Only 190 pages that MG didn’t read, but you! You! You should read that quickly-google nonsense.

Lol. Mental clearly didn't read my post. Nor does he pay attention to Shades' admonitions to not link and run.

[MG 2.0]

Well, as I’ve presented in some detail, there’s a bit more to it than what you’re describing.

What do you think about Emma’s interview which I posted earlier? She isn’t merely describing plates in a bag.

Something more than that.

Regards,
MG

Sigh.

Emma never said she saw the plates outside of the box they were placed in or the tablecloth they were wrapped it. I tend to agree with you her story should militate against a view that the plates were entirely visionary. Nevertheless, it needs to be pointed out that what she saw and handled could have been anything. So her story resolves nothing.

But then we come back to what I’ve been pounding in throughout this thread. Why would Joseph and others go through so much trouble for just “anything” as you say. Would it not make more sense that they would go through all that they did after the plates were retrieved if they were indeed real and had great value?

You seem to be saying Emma was rustling through something not entirely real…partly visionary…or that they were a prop of little or no real value. Not worth taking precautions against, etc.

The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

https://rsc.BYU.edu/sites/default/files ... 0smith.pdf

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

How would the gospel of Jesus Christ have to be approached differently? For example, faith. Accountability. Perseverance and enduring to the end. Etc.

I'm not sure that it would. I mean, which of the Lord's commandments would you disregard if the plates were still around?

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith. The gospel teaches that we are separated from God and the things of eternity by a veil.

If we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will…that would put a monkey wrench into this thing we call Faith.

As it is, we are left to choose to believe and obey based upon incomplete information and knowledge.

It’s a bitch, right?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

But then we come back to what I’ve been pounding in throughout this thread. Why would Joseph and others go through so much trouble for just “anything” as you say. Would it not make more sense that they would go through all that they did after the plates were retrieved if they were indeed real and had great value?

No, not at all. Going through that 'trouble' would be exactly what cons would do.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Also, why did god allow the Book of Abraham papyri, D&C discourse notes and minutes, masonic rituals, and iStone to remain, all of which are subjected to scrutny, but not the gold plates, which weren’t even necessary?

Yeah. Makes sense.

Each of those are not hard fast/direct evidence of God intervening in the affairs of men.

The plates are that evidence…IF they were delivered by an angel. But we don’t have them.

So you’re left with these other ‘evidences’ which are available but are open to critical analysis and inspection that can lead one way or the other.

So you have the critics and the apologists.

If the plates were available would you be more likely to entertain the thought that they were delivered by an angel…of God?

It would do something for your faith which is severely lacking, wouldn’t it? Oh wait, then it wouldn’t be faith, it would be knowledge.

Knowledge vs. faith. A whole other topic that could be discussed.

Regards,
MG

Once again mental just says stuff.