If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

tagriffy, earlier in this thread I asked you if you were an active believing member of the church. Are you willing to share whether you are or aren’t?

I'm sorry. I missed that question somewhere and would have answered it. I am not an active member of the Church. I am a believing though very unorthodox Mormon. The term I typcially use for myself is Mormon-at-large.

Thank you for that.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The letter that MG asked Tagrify to run down for him for some nonsense reason (since he ain’t reading it, anyway):

Harmony— Oct. 22d— 1829——
​Let[ter],

Respected sir I would in form you that I arrived at home on sunday morning the 4th. after having a prosperous journy, and found all well the people are all friendly to <​us​> except a few who are in opposition to evry thing unless it is some thing that is axactly like themselves and two of our most formadable persacutors are now under censure and are cited to a tryal trial in the church for crimes which if true are worse than all the Gold Book business. we do not rejoice in the affliction of our enimies but we shall be glad to have truth prevail[.]

there begins to be a great call for our books2 in this country the minds of the people are very much excited when they find that there is a copy right obtained3 and that there is really books about to be printed I have bought a horse of Mr. [Josiah] Stowell and want some one to come after it as soon as convenient Mr Stowell has a prospect of getting five or six hundred dollars he does not know certain that he can get it but he is a going to try and if he can get the money he wants to pay it in immediately for books.

we want to hear from you and know how you prosper in the good work, give our best respects to Father & Mother and all our brothers and Sisters to Mr. [Martin] Harris and all the company concerned tell them that our prayers are put up daily for them that they may be prospered in evry, good word and work and that they may be preserved from sin here and and from the consequen[c]e of sin here after and now dear brother be faithful in the discharge of evry duty looking for the reward of the righteous

and now may God of his infinite mercy keep an<​d​> preserve us spotless untill his coming and receive us all to rest with him in
eternal repose through the attonement of Christ our Lord Amen

Joseph Smith

[Marcus]

The panic and desperation in your post was palpable. I am asking, what was the reason?

Nothing resembling panic. Capitalization was used for emphasis. Now and then I will do that although I try not to over do it.

So again, please engage the actual conversation without simply trying to blow things up through various means that you have at your disposal.

Regards,
MG

I am engaging. In this thread you have frequently assumed you know others' mindsets, beliefs, and motivations. Rather than simply assume, as you do, i am giving you the opportunity to explan what is motivating the seemingly panic-filled and desperate language in this post:

...“If the plates were real that opens up some possibilities that some folks would rather not entertain.”

As it stands, that sentence is true.

And I’m also saying that this…obviously…is why you and others go to great lengths to disregard and/or diss the testimony of Emma and others, including women, who testified that the plates were real.

You CAN’T have real plates.

NO MATTER WHAT.

Real plates would change your whole worldview.

Right?

If plates, then God. And the God of Mormonism no less...

[tagriffy]

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith. The gospel teaches that we are separated from God and the things of eternity by a veil.

If we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will…that would put a monkey wrench into this thing we call Faith.

As it is, we are left to choose to believe and obey based upon incomplete information and knowledge.

It’s a bitch, right?

Regards,
MG

ARGH! Even if we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will, we would still have to have faith! If the plates were available and shown to be translated accurately, what would that tell us about the statement, "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things" (2 Ne. 2:11)? Not a damned thing! "An opposition in all things" is an abstract concept that isn't amendable to evidence and indeed is beyond the realm of evidence. One accepts the notion (or not) on faith. And this is just one of many concepts in the Book of Mormon that are beyond the realm of evidence and must be accepted on faith. Having physical plates and showing Lehi won't change that.

Regards,
MG

Apologies for probably messing up on the quoting scheme.

This is definitely the post I was referring to, and judging from your subsequent post, it's the one that didn't make sense to you.

The basic point I was trying to make is that even if the plates were available, there would still be a number of things we would have to exercise faith about. For example, having the plates would prove Lehi actually existed, but it would not (indeed, could not) prove his idea that "it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things" (2 Ne. 2:11) is true. Ultimately, one has to accept the proposition by faith. This is just one of many propositions found in the Book of Mormon that would not and could not be proven simply by producing the plates.

I'm going to leave things here with this restatement. Hopefully it makes at least enough sense for you to ask further questions.

[tagriffy]

Fair enough. You have your views. I have mine. I think it is through the expression of all viewpoints that we can learn from each other and others can assess the validity and/or sensibleness of what various parties have to say.

I, for one, appreciate honest dialogue. I learn. Others learn. We’re all the better for it.

Also, I will be the first to admit that I’m always in the ‘journey of faith’ mode/seat. Lots of questions and things that I “see through a glass darkly”. But for many reasons I give the benefit of a doubt to the church and its mission and message.

For me, it fits in…generally…with an expanded view of the cosmos/meaning/purpose.

Sometimes, admittedly, the details can be messy. But so was Monet, in a sense.

In the larger picture, to my understanding of the world around me, the plates and angels make more sense than most of the other stuff out there. Including agnosticism and/or atheism. Although I can see how folks can move that direction.

What makes the world so interesting is that there are so many views and positions to be had. I find that very supportive of the whole concept of free will and agency to choose.

Regards,
MG

MG! Look at what you wrote here! You already have what you need! Would I be too far out of line if I suggested you let it sink in?

[Doctor Scratch]

The plates supersede anything that comes thereafter. As I’ve been saying, they are primary. They are key. If the plates were real we can then look at various theories in regards to Book of Mormon geography, nineteenth century anachronisms, and all that.

The plates come first.

It’s Interesting that one of the first things the Lord did, was to tell Joseph Smith to have witnesses to the plates. I wonder if Joseph would have even considered or thought about that on his own.

Regards,
MG

Huh? I thought faith in Jesus Christ came first, not the plates. You mean you worship the plates? The plates supersede the restoration of the priesthood? The restoration of the organization of the original church? Prophecy? Modern prophets?

You really should think through your arguments before you make them.

M.G. is echoing the exact things that the Mopologetic leadership has been saying for years. DCP, Midgley, Hamblin, etc. have all said repeatedly that the whole edifice will crumble if the plates aren’t real. Jesus’ atonement; the sermon on the mount; the doctrine of eternal progression—all of that gets tossed if the plates were phony.

[MG 2.0]

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith. The gospel teaches that we are separated from God and the things of eternity by a veil.

If we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will…that would put a monkey wrench into this thing we call Faith.

As it is, we are left to choose to believe and obey based upon incomplete information and knowledge.

It’s a bitch, right?

Regards,
MG



Regards,
MG

Apologies for probably messing up on the quoting scheme.

This is definitely the post I was referring to, and judging from your subsequent post, it's the one that didn't make sense to you.

The basic point I was trying to make is that even if the plates were available, there would still be a number of things we would have to exercise faith about. For example, having the plates would prove Lehi actually existed, but it would not (indeed, could not) prove his idea that "it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things" (2 Ne. 2:11) is true. Ultimately, one has to accept the proposition by faith. This is just one of many propositions found in the Book of Mormon that would not and could not be proven simply by producing the plates.

I'm going to leave things here with this restatement. Hopefully it makes at least enough sense for you to ask further questions.

Simply put, the reason your response didn’t make sense was because essentially you ignore the primary reason the church teaches that we’re here on earth.

We are physically and spiritually separated from God.

If the plates were available and were used/proven as evidence for the Book of Mormon being the work of God we would no longer have the kind of faith that matters. We would have direct knowledge. The other things you then refer to wouldn’t require any real faith to obey/do because we would have more or less perfect knowledge that God exists as the LDS Church teaches and that the commandments are actually given by God for our eternal welfare and happiness.

As it is, alas, we have to seek out God and greater understanding of light and truth on our own.

Although within the church we believe that He hasn’t left us in the dark. Thus, prophets/doctrines/scriptures/Priesthood.

The plates and their verification of having come from God would negate the Plan of Salvation in the sense that humanity would be under direct obligation to accept and follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Plates=God in this instance. That is what Bushman and DCP are attempting to get through to some tough skulls.

As it is, we all have our free agency to choose and those that don’t have that privilege and/or option are taken care of through God’s grace/love.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I think we are witnessing a moment similiar to when Richard Dawkins was asked "what if your wrong?" But in reverse. Similiar to When Mike Lee tweeted "Joseph had the plates and that settles it".

[MG 2.0]

Huh? I thought faith in Jesus Christ came first, not the plates. You mean you worship the plates? The plates supersede the restoration of the priesthood? The restoration of the organization of the original church? Prophecy? Modern prophets?

You really should think through your arguments before you make them.

M.G. is echoing the exact things that the Mopologetic leadership has been saying for years. DCP, Midgley, Hamblin, etc. have all said repeatedly that the whole edifice will crumble if the plates aren’t real. Jesus’ atonement; the sermon on the mount; the doctrine of eternal progression—all of that gets tossed if the plates were phony.

No, those things would still be in play, it’s the Restoration narrative that would be impacted. The plates are part and parcel of that narrative. So it would be Priesthood restoration and authority to perform essential ordinances that would be compromised.

And most importantly, the nature of God and the Godhead along with a fuller understanding of the Atonement of Christ.

As you know, the Book of Mormon, more than any other scripture, teaches the doctrine of Christ in regards to the Atonement in greater depth and understanding than any other book of scripture.

Something that is becoming more at risk in the secular world we live in today.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

‘God thinking about testing His hicks’ faith’:

iStone? Yes. I’ll leave the magical peep stone that only Joseph could use to find treasures (heh), and divine events from afar so he can write a novel *cough*, I mean a record about my Nephites and Jaredites.

Funerary scrolls? Yes, I’ll leave a record upon which a good portion of My doctrines will be taught in these latter days. All divined, by the way, by Joseph.

Golden plates? Nah. Too much. We need faith.