If plates then God

[malkie]

If a police officer catches a would-be child abuser just before he hurts a child, is that officer frustrating god's will? and should he repent?

Just one example, of course.

[Res Ipsa]

I need to say a few things here. I know MG is on the thread and it looks like people are engaging him. I am sure they are aggravated with him as per usual. I haven't read any of his posts (ignore list) nor the responses to them. I've simply taken up a few comments from people I respect for response in order to express my opinions and thoughts on those comments, and see what they think about it.

Not one of those people is MG so please don't think I have anything to do with whatever he's up to here. I'm not particularly well so please don't draw me into whatever he's doing or mix me up with him. I don't have the bandwidth and I didn't come here for him. I came here to discuss ideas and think with my friends.

Period. End of MG story.

Sorry to hear you aren’t feeling well. Sending healing thoughts your way.

[Marcus]

That's a bunch of nonsense gibberish that helps you deal with the harsh realities of an absurd universe that produces bone cancer and eyeball parasites - and is silent when a child is raped in a basement in a crappy town, say, in Soweto.

Sure, we humans are trying to do better, but what about the billions of humans who suffered horrific deaths, torture, abuse, and starvation because the gods stood passively by? And don't bother to type out some nonsense that the Holy Spirit was with the woman who had her fingers chopped off in Hanoi by a man who proceeded to rape and murder her family in front of her eyes circa 761 AD. This world is an unbelievably cruel place, and if an intelligence created it, he or she ain't tellin' us why while it stands by, despite what you think some dumb rubes said about the whole affair back in 100 AD.

- Doc

You may have learned along the way that mutations occur within the natural world. Genetic abnormalities occur.

You may also have noticed that no matter how many guide rails are put in place by good and decent people we still have a certain sub group of humanity that will, through their own violation and/or being subject to these same random mutations/genetic abnormalities, will do horrendous things that lead to terrible outcomes.

So you can choose to believe, and with good reason, that we live in an “absurd universe”. On the other hand if there is a God that created all, then all these things, both the good and the bad, are a compound in one. They are part of one grand plan which ultimately brings about the saving of souls and the redemption of ALL of mankind through the gifts and merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Secularists don’t have the answer to the so called absurdities except to posit that we live in a cold and heartless universe.

What BS. That's your version.

The gospel of Christ teaches and gives hope to other alternatives. And that good will triumph over evil.

No the LDS version of the 'gospel' doesn't, and especially not consistently, as I already pointed out.

That is the really tone deaf part of the LDS approach, they trumpet 'god's intervention' due to the ' righteousness' of LDS members at every coincidence they can, without considering the implications.

The most horrifying example of this for me, was when the LDS church news trumpeted that LDS missionaries were not harmed when a terrorist bomb went off in France, injuring and killing many. The missionaries had coincidentally walked out just before the detonation, but the LDS headline was that the missionaries' 'righteousness' led to the Mormon god protecting them from death.

The same day, I saw a small notice that an LDS missionary in South America had died, due to the inhumane conditions the LDS leadership forces missionaries to endure in poverty stricken places. (not the mission presidents, though.)

It was devastating to consider that the mother of that missionary, while waiting for her son's body to be returned, might have read that obnoxious article pronouncing that 'righteous' missionaries were spared death by god's intervention. Was her son not righteous? What a devastating message to have to read. I will never forget how sick this made me feel, and how damaging the LDS approach can be.

[Jersey Girl]

I need to say a few things here. I know MG is on the thread and it looks like people are engaging him. I am sure they are aggravated with him as per usual. I haven't read any of his posts (ignore list) nor the responses to them. I've simply taken up a few comments from people I respect for response in order to express my opinions and thoughts on those comments, and see what they think about it.

Not one of those people is MG so please don't think I have anything to do with whatever he's up to here. I'm not particularly well so please don't draw me into whatever he's doing or mix me up with him. I don't have the bandwidth and I didn't come here for him. I came here to discuss ideas and think with my friends.

Period. End of MG story.

Sorry to hear you aren’t feeling well. Sending healing thoughts your way.

Thanks I wrote about it in SSP. I just don't want anyone to think I'm posting on this thread because my intentions have anything at all to do with whatever MG is laying down. I can dig my own black hole all by myself thanks very much.

[MG 2.0]

And yet that “Satan plan” is the the one that is being promoted by individuals on this thread, if I’m not mistaken. If the plates were accessible for all to see and understand as being evidence of God. If children were somehow free from any harm or abuse through absolute force from the ‘good guys’. In other words, a god of this world that required no faith, made it known that he was god, and gave evidences galore of that fact.

My question has consistently been concerned with what kind of world would that be.

There would be no faith in the earth. Just knowledge. And external force to do god’s bidding. Then for what purpose are we here?

The plates were evidence…but we are free to choose, based upon our faith, whether they are evidence of God. So much of what goes on in this world forces us to choose faith or doubt.

But fortunately no forces that disallow sin and disobedience. The opposite doesn’t provide a happy picture.

As it is, Mormonism teaches that we are here to prove ourselves.



Some are going to blow it big time. People are harmed as a result. But that’s not on God. He provided His Son to perform the infinite atonement. And until you folks can come up with a better plan that is not a clone of Satan’s plan I would suggest you not continue to rip on a God who may know a whole lot more than you do about what makes the plan of salvation tick and has failsafes in place.

No decent human being condones evil. But it exists in an imperfect world consisting of imperfect people.

The arrogance that needs to be maintained to play armchair god is almost unimaginable.

If I recall, Jesus had to put up with shenanigans from lawyers and hypocrites back in the day.

Regards,
MG

The arrogance of playing armchair God is all yours, MG 2.0. It is you that make claims that only your God can make: which, if any, of the thousands and thousands of events that constitute the restoration were necessary to bring about the plan of salvation. You have the arrogance to speak for God as to which, if any, of the pieces and consequences of the plan of salvation are necessary to bring about its goals. Yet you confidently declare that an unchangeable part of the plan is the necessary suffering of the innocent who need no redemption. But, it fact, you're speaking for your God out of complete ignorance. Do you have the "keys" to speak for your God?

IF you're accusing me of arguing for "Satan's plan," that's just a lie. Satan's plan is no freedom to choose to sin at all. I have explained to you over and over that I'm asking only about one of the millions of way to sin each of us have. Saying that being denied one of those millions of way -- abusing innocent children -- is Satan's plan would be just like me claiming that I have no free agency because it is impossible for me to cause children to burst into flame with my mind. If I don't have that specific way to sin, then I have no free agency whatsoever, right? We're in Satan's plan right now.

It is morally bankrupt to claim that a being that intentionally places innocent children in circumstances where it knows that the children will be beaten, raped, tortured and murdered. And it is also morally bankrupt to purchase your eternal salvation at that cost borne by innocent others. If that's the best plan you can imagine, then the rational answer is that there is no plan. Or, if there is a God with a plan, you don't have the faintest idea what it is.

By endorsing your God's plan of salvation, you are not just condoning evil -- you are purchasing your own eternal happiness on the backs of beaten, raped, tortured, and murdered innocent children. That's absolutely on you. In terms of the story, you are perfectly happy to live forever in Omelas.

If you need a story to give you purpose and hope, there are millions of possible stories out there. You are the one choosing the story in which you purchase your eternal happiness at a horrific cost. I'd suggest the humble position is to admit that, if your loving Creator God exists, you don't have the first idea of what and why he is doing.

I'm happy not imagining God's and plans. If there's actually a God out there, I suspect he gets that.

This thread has been going on long enough so that I think we each have a pretty good idea of where we each stand. Some things are merely being repeated at this point. I value the fact that you have different views than I do. But the fact is, as you already know, I believe you’re mistaken in your views in regards to those things we’ve been discussing.

I realize minds will not be changed but I am hopeful of the fact that others are able to read and use the conversation as food for thought as they determined whether or not they choose to believe in a creator God. We live in a world in which one can make that choice along with so many others.

Unfortunately, there are those, as I remember mentioned, that choose to do harm and cause mayhem. My belief is that there is a failsafe for a world in which real choices are made. Many which are evil.

And that is the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am grateful that this choice exists for many. My prayer is that it will spread further into areas in which free agency and choice is limited at this time.

By the way, even though Jersey Girl has me on ignore I’d like to say I’ve enjoyed her comments in this thread. I suppose I won’t be able to tell her directly.

Back to conference. Morning session was great. Jesus Christ was the focus. In this world His message gives hope to an otherwise “absurd” world as Doc describes it.

Thanks again for your point of view.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Tl;dr - Nothing's ever God’s fault

[Jersey Girl]

Tl;dr - Nothing's ever God’s fault

I put a lot of effort into my post to give you the long form discussion that you say you prefer.

You're welcome.

[Marcus]

Tl;dr - Nothing's ever God’s fault

I put a lot of effort into my post to give you the long form discussion that you say you prefer.

You're welcome.

He's responding to Mg's version of god, and the Mormon god is vastly different from what most believers here agree with. In mg's world, god calls men to leadership positions so they can be caught (?????) abusing children and thereby have the opportunity to repent and go on to full celestial glory. It's an obscene and despicable position i have seen no other non-Mormon believers here express.

Doc is just responding to that.

[Jersey Girl]

I put a lot of effort into my post to give you the long form discussion that you say you prefer.

You're welcome.

He's responding to Mg's version of god, and the Mormon god is vastly different from what most believers here agree with. In mg's world, god calls men to leadership positions so they can be caught (?????) abusing children and thereby have the opportunity to repent and go on to full celestial glory. It's an obscene and despicable position i have seen no other non-Mormon believers here express.

Doc is just responding to that.

He didn't make that clear and unless he does, I don't believe it. You could be right. I'm stepping away for a while.

[Marcus]

He's responding to Mg's version of god, and the Mormon god is vastly different from what most believers here agree with. In mg's world, god calls men to leadership positions so they can be caught (?????) abusing children and thereby have the opportunity to repent and go on to full celestial glory. It's an obscene and despicable position i have seen no other non-Mormon believers here express.

Doc is just responding to that.

He didn't make that clear and unless he does, I don't believe it.

lol. Okay sure. don't believe me. Lol.