If plates then God

[tagriffy]

thus sparing me from being killed in the accident that was about to happen down the road. In such a case, he's doing it in a way that he isn't making himself directly known

getting there. usually evidence starts with the most useless examples of existential evil, not necessarily the most heart-wrenching situations. No matter how disingenuous free agency arguments can get, or "we can't change the plan", steering clear altogether can avoid that. Like, an example on the Internet; lighting strikes and there's a forest fire (in an uninhabited part of the world), and a fawn is painfully burned to death. Nobody's free agency was at risk by saving the fawn, and it's hard to imagine how sparing the painful destruction of the fawn would derail any "plan" for the seed of Adam and Eve.

My ultimate point is not about whether or not "we can change the plan," it's about what God could do that wouldn't violate MG's notion He must not make Himself known.

[malkie]

I think that as folks started noticing people dropping dead everything time they were about to do serious harm and this was making it on the news that would create a stir.

I’m amused that you’re even trying to make an argument here. It tells me that you may not really be serious.

Playing games.

Regards,
MG

Actually, I'm quite serious. Indeed, I can even claim Scriptural backing for the idea. The Joseph cycle in Genesis doesn't depict God directly doing anything, and in fact the principals only see God at work retroactively. God is never directly mentioned at all in Esther, yet it also seems clear the author intends us to see God working behind the scenes. There are probably other stories in Scripture that could be called upon; these two are just off the top of my head.

A person dropping dead when they were about to do serious harm--what's that? God doing something like that need not be as dramatic as the gunman scenario I posted previously. A person puts on a coat, intending to go out and kidnap, rape, and murder a child, but drops dead as their hand reaches for the door. How are we supposed to know they were about to do serious harm? And why would something like that make it on the news? People drop dead all the time.

Perhaps god isn't smart enough to work out how to do that.

God works in mysterious ways - except when doing so would interfere with an apologetic argument.

It's a bit like the descriptions of Joseph Smith's abilities and intelligence - fluid according to the needs of the moment, and so can justify complete contradictions.

Take this example of how god (according to MG's need at the time) is smart some of the time [my bolding]:

And every time i've posted your very own words where you said exactly that:

"Member of local Bishopric jailed on sex abuse charges"

[Bolding added]

That's you, mentalgymnast, saying that "the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. "

That's disgusting. And "despicable" is exactly the description you deserve.

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

If anything I should have said, “could pan out” rather than “were going to pan out”. How inspiration and God knowing all things and free will dovetail together is a great question. And I honestly don’t have a clue how it does. What I so believe is that God has back up plans for situations where those in positions of authority blow it.

That was even true with Joseph Smith the prophet.

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

Only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for allowing me to rephrase my position. An example of speaking too fast without thinking things through completely. Ever done that? If not, you’re a better person than me.

Regards,
MG

Failsafes when MG thinks they may work in his favour, none when they would work against him.

[huckelberry]

Please list 5 types of needless suffering that could be prevented if only God would step in.

1.Child rape
2. child torture
3. child starvation to death
4. child slavery
5. child beating and almost bleeding to death

to name just a few of thousands of themes with all walks of people of any age.

how about all those young men whose names are on the wall. How about all those unnamed in that same conflict. Napalm children. How about Ukraine, about about the people there under Stalin. How about all those those young men at Gettysburg, cold harbor, Fredricksburg, Normandy. etc. etc. etc. And speaking of that, how about earthquakes, hurricanes, and tornadoes?

[I Have Questions]

Yes, I have a high degree of confidence that it’s true. But it’s not because of money spent. The fact that temples are being provided in all parts of the world in unprecedented numbers is what’s amazing.

Wouldn’t you agree with that?

Who would’ve thought?

Brother Brigham?

Regards,
MG

Why is the church’s temple building programme “amazing” (causing great surprise or wonder)?

[I Have Questions]

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

This is confusing. First you claim God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it, then you give an example of someone blowing it where no failsafe was evident. Then you claim God allowed it.

In making that last statement you have to own the position that your God allows children to be raped. What’s the failsafe for the victims? On the basis that this life is supposed to be for our learning, a child who is raped has their life entirely messed up. Their opportunity for learning is skewed in favour of their abusers learning, according to you. Your God is rewarding the unrighteous by allowing them the chance to learn from their abuse of others. If you counter that the victim will have it all made good in the next life, then your claim that this life is necessary for the learning process, for God’s plan for individuals, is undermined.

I’ll be interested to hear your mental gymnastics on this one…

[Marcus]

I wish you well with long COVID, Doc. I have coworkers (4 out 13) who had COVID early on and still deal with its effects, and none of them with the same effects.

Thanks, DD and MN. One of our good friend’s husband works in the trades, and she said he’s been dealing with long covid for a year and it’s taken a huge toll on him. He’s one of those self-made genius house flipper and builder guys, super talented, but can’t garner the energy to do much of anything. When I heard that, I was just fresh off a serious multiple health issue thing (covid being just one of them), and it was like a punch to the gut. I thought, “Holy crap, am I gonna be feeling like this for a year?!?”

I’m like gassed all. the. time. All the time. All of it. Sucks.

The upside is I have a jacuzzi now and fml I’ve been missing out. In fact, I think Imma go sit in it now.

- Doc

Ouch, sorry to hear about the long covid, but glad to hear about your hot tub!! Enjoy!!

[MG 2.0]

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

This is confusing. First you claim God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

You got off on the wrong foot to begin with in misphrasing and/or misrepresenting what I said.

I said:

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it…

You said:

God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

Look carefully. See the difference?

Everything else you said is set up on a faulty foundation.

But I’m sure that wasn’t intentional.

I needed to jump in on this one. I’ve been at this thread long enough and I believe I’ve made some strong points along the way. Various options and ways of approaching the topics at hand have been presented. It is now up to the reader to determine what makes most sense to them. At this point I will only jump in if I see something that might need adjustment or correction if I’m being misrepresented or having my words twisted as they sometimes are whether purposefully or unintentionally.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

God works in mysterious ways - except when doing so would interfere with an apologetic argument.

I think this is the bottom line.

[Marcus]

This is confusing. First you claim God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

You got off on the wrong foot to begin with in misphrasing and/or misrepresenting what I said.

I said:

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it…

You said:

God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

Look carefully. See the difference?

So, if there is a difference as you are saying, then you are reiterating your original position:

...if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions...

But the LDS church teaches that god inspires callings. Which means you are back to this:

...[it is]Mg's version of god, and the Mormon god is vastly different from what most believers here agree with. In mg's world, god calls men to leadership positions so they can be caught (?????) abusing children and thereby have the opportunity to repent and go on to full celestial glory. It's an obscene and despicable position i have seen no other non-Mormon believers here express....

You even reiterated this in your last correction:

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

And not one word about the victims sacrificed, the ones who actually "pay the uttermost farthing" so that the sinners can repent. You are not getting the point at all.

And still not.

[Marcus]

God works in mysterious ways - except when doing so would interfere with an apologetic argument.

I think this is the bottom line.

Yes.