If plates then God

[Marcus]

It's not just the LDS Church. Judging from what I've seen, it's a common practice all over conservative versions of Christianity.

Interestingly, i don't see it in my east coast experience. Of my spouse's 9 siblings and their dozens of kids, grandkids, relatives, friends etc., the range is from opus dei level of belief, to priests and Jesuit brothers, to those very involved with a parish, to casual Mass attenders, to "easter" and cmas eve attenders, to catholics in name only, to outspoken agnostics, many many atheists, some JWs, Baptists, Protestants, non-denominational church goers, etc.

In the 30 or so years since i left the LDS church and have been part of this group, NOT ONCE has one single person EVER made a judgment on anyone else about their anticipated after life status. NOT ONCE. Not at funerals, not at marriages, not at parties, not in conversation. NOT ONCE.

Maybe you are experiencing other conservative groups, but in my experience, people do not isolate, separate, and shame family members on the basis of religious belief like Mormons do. in my opinion, Mormons really seem to have the market cornered on that particular level of family hate, disparagement, and shaming.

[huckelberry]

It's not just the LDS Church. Judging from what I've seen, it's a common practice all over conservative versions of Christianity.

I wish you were mistaken on this but you are hardly mistaken. It can be significantly worse in some circles.

[huckelberry]

It's not just the LDS Church. Judging from what I've seen, it's a common practice all over conservative versions of Christianity.

Interestingly, i don't see it in my east coast experience. Of my spouse's 9 siblings and their dozens of kids, grandkids, relatives, friends etc., the range is from opus dei level of belief, to priests and Jesuit brothers, to those very involved with a parish, to casual Mass attenders, to "easter" and cmas eve attenders, to catholics in name only, to outspoken agnostics, many many atheists, some JWs, Baptists, Protestants, non-denominational church goers, etc.

In the 30 or so years since i left the LDS church and have been part of this group, NOT ONCE has one single person EVER made a judgment on anyone else about their anticipated after life status. NOT ONCE. Not at funerals, not at marriages, not at parties, not in conversation. NOT ONCE.

Maybe you are experiencing other conservative groups, but in my experience, people do not isolate, separate, and shame family members on the basis of religious belief like Mormons do. in my opinion, Mormons really seem to have the market cornered on that particular level of family hate, disparagement, and shaming.

Marcus, I am glad you pointed out the large body of people who avoid personal condemnations over differences of faith.It sounds like Catholic influence may be important but other groups as well try to avoid using narrow self righteousness to cover up their uncertainties.

[I Have Questions]

This is confusing. First you claim God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

You got off on the wrong foot to begin with in misphrasing and/or misrepresenting what I said.

I said:

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it…

You said:

God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…

Look carefully. See the difference?

Please explain the difference

[Rivendale]

God instituted some really good fail safe devices when he decided to flood the entire world. Apparently that is relatively and arguably as close to blowing as you can get. And never mind all the unnecessary suffering that happened then (allegedly) that had no bearing on the atonement. The fallen world excuse is quite the workaround to sit comfortable with your indoctrination firmly imbedded in your neural networks.

[huckelberry]

You got off on the wrong foot to begin with in misphrasing and/or misrepresenting what I said.

I said:God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it…


You said:God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it…


Look carefully. See the difference?

Please explain the difference

MG, you pointed this little conflict out to me a few pages back. I can see there are a couple of different words in your phrase so I think it is entirely possible that you had something a bit different in mind than the paraphrase but to tell the truth I have no idea whatsoever what difference you had in mind. It happens in any writing but more easily in the message board context that you as writer are clear about in implication or linking idea in your own mind so skip spelling it out so readers know what it is you are thinking of. I am sure we all have done that in keeping a post to respectably short length.

But MG if you wish to keep repeating this little puzzle you should take a step back and let us know what you meant by the phrase others seem to misunderstand.

[MG 2.0]

Please explain the difference

MG, you pointed this little conflict out to me a few pages back. I can see there are a couple of different words in your phrase so I think it is entirely possible that you had something a bit different in mind than the paraphrase but to tell the truth I have no idea whatsoever what difference you had in mind. It happens in any writing but more easily in the message board context that you as writer are clear about in implication or linking idea in your own mind so skip spelling it out so readers know what it is you are thinking of. I am sure we all have done that in keeping a post to respectably short length.

But MG if you wish to keep repeating this little puzzle you should take a step back and let us know what you meant by the phrase others seem to misunderstand.

Here was the original post in question:

This is confusing. First you claim God would have failsafes to prevent someone blowing it, then you give an example of someone blowing it where no failsafe was evident. Then you claim God allowed it.

In making that last statement you have to own the position that your God allows children to be raped. What’s the failsafe for the victims? On the basis that this life is supposed to be for our learning, a child who is raped has their life entirely messed up. Their opportunity for learning is skewed in favour of their abusers learning, according to you. Your God is rewarding the unrighteous by allowing them the chance to learn from their abuse of others. If you counter that the victim will have it all made good in the next life, then your claim that this life is necessary for the learning process, for God’s plan for individuals, is undermined.

I’ll be interested to hear your mental gymnastics on this one…

I never said that God has failsafes to prevent people from doing bad things. That would mean that free agency is hindered.

What I said was:

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule.

Notice that I didn’t say God would create failsafes to prevent people from doing bad things but that there are failsafes in case they do bad things. That allows for agency. Those failsafes most importantly include the Atonement of Christ by which all will be made whole. Some of the more tangible failsafes are follow up for victims of a crime through human intervention and healing opportunities and processes.

I hope that clears things up even though with some follow up posts to IHAQBKA I thought I made my self clear.

I then did a final (I hope) follow up and went into some depth on the topic:

I’ve stated my thoughts in regards to this throughout the thread. God ‘allows’ for children to be raped in the same sense that He allows for a husband to shoot and kill his family. Or for a woman to kill her own children. Allowing doesn’t mean condoning. People that do horrendous acts of violence to a child, to a spouse, to a coworker, or what have you, will be held accountable for those actions. In the meantime children are harmed and often carry the scars of other’s terrible acts/mistakes.

But if we live in a world in which agency reigns supreme how can it be otherwise? That’s what I’ve said over and over and over again. Apparently to no avail. NO ONE has come with an alternative other than something that would resemble what is referred to as ‘Satan’s plan’. A world where everyone does the right thing all the time because they don’t have any choice. Comparable, I suppose, to an Islamic country that cuts off body parts if folks do bad things. That would definitely act as a deterrent if enacted world wide and enforced.

Would we want to live in a world like that where government and police action would take such extreme measures and be granted powers to exercise extreme punishments? Can you imagine where that might end up? Governments that can dictate every move and freedom or lack of freedom?

Look around and you can see examples of this in one form or another. Is that what you want?

As it is, we are free to choose. That brings its own risks. Mainly being, people are going to do bad things.

Repeatedly I’ve come back to the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I see this as the only real hope for a world in which sin exists and freedom and liberty reigns triumphant. Laws can be enacted and enforced against child rape and other hideous crimes agains humanity, but wicked people BY NATURE are still going to commit acts of violence against children and others.

It’s the ‘fallen’ world we live in. A telestial world. But we have hope for a better world in which all will be restored to its perfect and proper frame…and all that this would entail.

I realize that you and others seem to be under the illusion that an all powerful God ought to step in and cure every ill, stop every act of violence, etc.

But that’s just not the world we live in. So get over it. Actions have real consequences. Human beings have agency.

If you have a better alternative than the world we live in feel free to outline in detail how that might look/work while at the same time allowing for free agency.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

God instituted some really good fail safe devices when he decided to flood the entire world.

I don’t think God puts failsafes in place that prevent bad things from happening. (read previous post)

A few days ago a family in our old ward had a 17 year old boy pass away from bulky lymphoma after struggling for seven years with all kinds of hardship.

These things happen. And, sheesh, it would be SO easy to curse God. Or to wonder if He even exists or cares.

That’s where trust and faith come in that an all powerful God will make things right through the miracle of His Son and his resurrection.

It’s hard to believe, isn’t it?

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

I think a better plan is available. Instead of claiming we live in a fallen world why not just accept we live in a world that is one of the few places we can see that cultivated life in such a myriad of ways. Not fallen ways but an intricate woven fabric of interesting evolution. Fallen gives excuses. Fallen places blame where there is no evidence of blame. It jettisons blame and responsibility in favor of dogma and unfalsifiable claims. Accepting that we are a spark in an otherwise dead solar system creates innovation that your religious ideology wants to downplay and create elaborate torturous mazes to stifle. Instead of standing in awe of the fallen world and all of its absurdities I would suggest doing something about it collectively rather than letting it be absorbed by the featured religion of the day.

[Philo Sofee]

I think a better plan is available. Instead of claiming we live in a fallen world why not just accept we live in a world that is one of the few places we can see that cultivated life in such a myriad of ways. Not fallen ways but an intricate woven fabric of interesting evolution. Fallen gives excuses. Fallen places blame where there is no evidence of blame. It jettisons blame and responsibility in favor of dogma and unfalsifiable claims. Accepting that we are a spark in an otherwise dead solar system creates innovation that your religious ideology wants to downplay and create elaborate torturous mazes to stifle. Instead of standing in awe of the fallen world and all of its absurdities I would suggest doing something about it collectively rather than letting it be absorbed by the featured religion of the day.

Very, VERY well and beautifully said...
The whole "doctrine" of the fall is stupid and may very well be the cause of so much theological lunacy.