Mothers in Zion - why they're leaving

[Dr. Shades]

Thank you for typing all that up, Dr. Moore. I wonder: Regarding #6 and #8, do any of the women with whom you conversed believe that one can indulge those two points and yet remain active, participating believers?

Jersey Girl:

Thank you for typing that up. What a tragedy. I have long said that the LDS church will chew you up and spit you out if you let it.

[Philo Sofee]

I found reading all of this simply captivating. It shows you how insightful women are, how strongly they feel about raising healthy children, and how they have learned to value themselves.

It also made me feel horribly sad and angry. Sad for my LDS lady friend. I have so many memories of her "ripping and running" to get things done, preparing meals for the freezer (the woman could whip out casseroles like no other), going to multiple activities during the week, meeting up with sisters for canning, attending to baby showers, big church events, family home evening, Girl's Activity, Boy Scouts, visit teaching and getting ready for her lessons (which she always went the extra mile for) as Primary teacher (then later serving as Primary president) late on Saturday night, basically screaming at her kids because by then she was at wits end after a long week, then she'd put them to bed and with her non-LDS husband home she'd run out to make copies or pick up poster board or stop in at Walmart and run through Taco Bell for herself before returning home and stay up until the wee hours putting the finishing touches on her materials for class, only to get up early to get the kids ready for church, spend over 3 hours there on Sunday and crash in the afternoon. Only to start the cycle all over on Monday.

She also volunteered outside of the church. She held down a part time job, at one point it was two. She always, always, always, went the extra mile but particularly in her devotion to church and her callings. Sometimes I thought she felt she had to somehow make up for marrying outside of her faith. She was a complete blur. She could tell me things that I know she couldn't give voice to within her church.

She always saw to it that the kids made their medical and dental visits. But she hardly ever saw to her own that I am aware of. My sense was that she always put herself last on the list.

My relationship with her was the catalyst for my investigation into Mormonism. I've told the story many times here over the years.

She died of a massive heart attack. She only lived to see one of her children's weddings. The woman who loved babies so much never lived to see her grandchildren. It wasn't supposed to be that way. It should have never been that way. The anger I mention is due to the fact that I blame her running herself into the ground primarily for the LDS Church for her death and I don't care what anyone else thinks about that opinion.

How I wish she had lived long enough to see the grassroots movement unfolding in the lives of the Sisters you wrote about Dr. Moore. She would have led the charge.

Thank you kind, dear one, for sharing this. It is a tragedy. My own mother was very similar to this for so long! Oh it is a video in the making from my end, somehow, someway I have to help get the women's voices heard also. Their humanity is sacrificed by the church and they are taught to believe the Kingdom of God is more important than even their own lives and their family. It is just ridiculous how we were all brainwashed into thinking we are doing God's work, when it is anything but in that organization.

[Res Ipsa]

Jersey Girl -- heartbreaking.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Thank you kind, dear one, for sharing this. It is a tragedy. My own mother was very similar to this for so long! Oh it is a video in the making from my end, somehow, someway I have to help get the women's voices heard also. Their humanity is sacrificed by the church and they are taught to believe the Kingdom of God is more important than even their own lives and their family. It is just ridiculous how we were all brainwashed into thinking we are doing God's work, when it is anything but in that organization.

My mother, too. Between church, running the family business with my father, and more church she ran herself ragged. She died at 63 of a heart attack in 2001. We were unfortunately estranged, but it doesn't change how I feel about her and the sacrifices she made to further the cult's aims. Was she happy? For the most part I remember her being a fairly jovial person, but I also remember the tears she shed, unnecessarily, for children who didn't fit into the 70's - 90's mold of the Perfect Mormon. Too much heartache for a terrific woman who gave all only to have her life cut short. RIP, mom.

- Doc

[Marcus]

1. Feminism 2.0. Call version 1.0 the 1970s-1990s. Feminism 1.0 backfired spectacularly for outspoken women in the church. Remember when Packer declared feminism one of three great evils?

Oh my, yes i do! My main memory of the very end of that time period was being called a "bitch" by my oldest brother, in front of all my siblings and my Mom at the last Christmas i spent w Mormons. (I had literally never heard him or anyone in my family use that word before, let alone on a family member.)

He called me a bitch because i was doing the unthinkable, getting my graduate degree and teaching at a university, while raising a young child. Even my then-husband, who was raised by a non-LDS, outspoken career woman, said nothing in my support.

I remember looking over at my Mom in panic, who had gathered all her kids, their spouses and grandkids to listen to him yell at me, but the complacent satisfaction in her face told me all I needed to know. I was on my own.

My parents had always encouraged me to use my brain, right up until my path in the LDS church as a married mother began. Then, every stereotype kicked in and I was shocked and sickened. It was a very, very, VERY difficult time. I never stayed with them again.

These days, it is number 8 that hits hardest or me.

8. Patronizing patriarchy. Finally, mothers in Zion are beginning to see the lifelong harm in having their boys trained up to be patronizing toward women, not to see them as whole people with unique dreams -- autonomy, career -- beyond mothering. The church, when it comes down to it, still wants women to suppress their identities and become certain types of mothers to be valid people. Men have inherent status, even if they do very little in the church. Women are always hustling for their value. More mothers realize, looking at their boys, how this intrinsic identity outcome harms a boy's ability to develop empathy for women, to see them as equals and to engage in healthy, equal, communicative relationships. And as a result, mothers are finding a foundation for saying "no" to the priesthood construct behind it.

I was already out of the LDS church for more than 15 years before my sons were born, and now, after 7 full generations of my entire family being Mormon, i take great pride in having created a new generation of men within my family tree, who think completely differently about women.

(Just to complete the story, my daughter was born atound the time i was leaving, but she is also out, and, without being too proud, is more like me than not. )

What i find incredibly admirable is that the women you spoke too, Dr. Moore, are able to be surrounded by all of this and stll think it through clearly. Although I was overwhelmingly lonely, 3000 miles away, i can't imagine the daily pressure of living next to people like my brother and surviving. The isolation probably saved me in the end, as difficult as it was.

[Dr Moore]

She died of a massive heart attack. She only lived to see one of her children's weddings. The woman who loved babies so much never lived to see her grandchildren. It wasn't supposed to be that way. It should have never been that way. The anger I mention is due to the fact that I blame her running herself into the ground primarily for the LDS Church for her death and I don't care what anyone else thinks about that opinion.

How I wish she had lived long enough to see the grassroots movement unfolding in the lives of the Sisters you wrote about Dr. Moore. She would have led the charge.

Thanks for sharing this. Powerful, and heartbreaking. Sorry for your loss.

[Dr Moore]

He called me a bitch because i was doing the unthinkable, getting my graduate degree and teaching at a university, while raising a young child. Even my then-husband, who was raised by a non-LDS, outspoken career woman, said nothing in my support.

I remember looking over at my Mom in panic, who had gathered all her kids, their spouses and grandkids to listen to him yell at me, but the complacent satisfaction in her face told me all I needed to know. I was on my own.

Inexcusable, but very relatable.

What i find incredibly admirable is that the women you spoke too, Dr. Moore, are able to be surrounded by all of this and stll think it through clearly.

I suspect it is a byproduct of having access to stories and places of communion with others who share similar experiences and have processed them by reading academic and/or clinical research. It feels like there is greater fluency all-around regarding what practices do, and don't, lead to healthy relationships and mental health. The brethren, by comparison, continue to press forward with a one-size-fits-all product model which frankly is more self-serving than anything.

[Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl:

Thank you for typing that up. What a tragedy. I have long said that the LDS church will chew you up and spit you out if you let it.

Do you think I am right in thinking that she ran herself ragged on account of her husband being (non-practicing) Catholic and not LDS? I know he went to church and all the functions including Daddy & Daughter things. He pitched in to help families when they were in need. He was there and somewhat involved but he was never baptized.

Same question to anyone who read my post. Do you think I am right about that?

[Jersey Girl]

Thank you kind, dear one, for sharing this. It is a tragedy. My own mother was very similar to this for so long! Oh it is a video in the making from my end, somehow, someway I have to help get the women's voices heard also. Their humanity is sacrificed by the church and they are taught to believe the Kingdom of God is more important than even their own lives and their family. It is just ridiculous how we were all brainwashed into thinking we are doing God's work, when it is anything but in that organization.ands

I hope you cover this when you are ready. I don't think the LDS Church really understands how hard the Sisters work to achieve expectations, fulfill callings (often multiple), and all the while caring for their often fairly large families. It's too much.

She could tell me things and I think that was an important part of our friendship. Being a willing ear who didn't judge her and couldn't hurt her church-wise, just listened to what she needed to get off her chest. You know how I am. Anyway, she and one of her children, are the only reasons I ever ended up on these boards. Her child had a hurtful experience at my own church. I challenged my youth pastor the very next day and sorted through the event. Then she asked me (crying, her voice cracked), "Jersey did he tell you you couldn't be friends with me"? My antenna went up...landed on RFM and then the boards.

[Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl -- heartbreaking.

It should have never happened that way. I will never stop blaming her trying to meet church expectations for her early death. Never.