If plates then God

[I Have Questions]

Please explain the difference

Hi IHAQBKA,

Please read my reply to huckleberry on the last page (64).This might help explain what has been confusing for you.

Regards,
MG

I’ve read that. It confirms that I didn’t misrepresent what you said. As others have pointed out, you didn’t make yourself clear. Now, what’s the fail-safe for a child who was abused and had their entire adult life experience ruined by someone who exercised their free agency to abuse another, given that this life experience is supposedly an essential requirement for eternal progression? Where is the victims fail-safe and how do they regain the opportunity of an earthly life’s learning experience?

I would also like you to explain what “IHAQBKA” stands for.

[Philo Sofee]

Very, VERY well and beautifully said...
The whole "doctrine" of the fall is stupid and may very well be the cause of so much theological lunacy.

Philo you might have a point there. But then I wonder which or what doctrine do you mean and how does it lead to lunacy. Your proposal invites expansion. After all however you approach it we live in world with people who are not angels.

Making the Genesis story the full explanation of why we struggle is narrow to the point choking thought. I might note that Genesis proposes that we got separated from the garden not that the world fell. It is perfectly reasonable to see the world continuing through the ages by natural law. I think calling the world fallen creates confusion and blurs scientific understanding.

Thank you for your ideas Huck. Yes this is the angle I was thinking, but not as clearly stating.

[Philo Sofee]

Dean Robbers, you’ve made it very clear.

I 2nd the motion your honor... thanks Gad, and you also Res.

[Morley]

I would also like you to explain what “IHAQBKA” stands for.

I'm guessing that this is one of MG's moves to subtly disparage you, IHQ. Marcus, tagriffy, Res Ipsa, malkie, and others have repeatly pointed out this ongoing tendency. MG will neither ever own it, nor stop doing it. When he's called out on it, he tells you to grow a pair or says you have a victim mentality. After that, he'll often either claim that he's being canceled or that you're godlessly maligning all believers. This is all a part of his not inconsiderable charm.



edit: To be honest, it's not even the continuous, subtle derogation of others that bothers me. It's the disingenuousness of the denials.

[MG 2.0]

At this juncture in regards to this thread a few things have ‘come out in the wash’ in regards to the views of those that don’t believe in the traditional account of the plates.

* Since there is no physical evidence of the plates available to us there is no obligation to believe.
* The plates may have been a prop used to shore up the narrative of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
* The plates are real in the sense that Frodo’s ring (my precious) was real. Book of Mormon as a mythical tale.
* The plates are not essential to having faith in the message of the Book of Mormon.
* Joseph Smith made the story up in regards to plates and duped others into believing in his con.
* Emma and other witnesses my have been sincere in their witness accounts as others were in this early period of religious revivalism. Visions, etc.

And in regards to the secondary topic which was discussed as it relates to the problem of evil and free agency, the general consensus on the part of those that are non believers in the restoration settled around some common themes/points.

* If the ‘Mormon god’ set up the plan of salvation he is a cruel and unfair god.
* Child rape and other horrendous acts should not be allowed to happen by an all knowing and powerful God.
* The world as it is can be considered absurd in that it is what it is and there is no sense to be made out of it.
* There is no overarching and/or cohesive eternal ‘plan’ or ultimate meaning to what we observe in regards to the human experience, both the good and the bad.
* In the ideal world sin and sorrow would be nonexistent. Child rape and abuse and all of the other evils and natural disasters would not exist. Free agency would be non existent so as to have a world without despair and evil.
* Since child rape and other evils exist in the world that is proof that the Mormon god does not exist and the CofJCofLDS is man made.
* A loving god would step in and inhibit and/or stop every evil in the world before it has a chance to happen.

And I would add that there was/is no better and/or alternative ‘plan’ made known to us on this thread in regards to the question of what kind of world could be created in which free agency exists while at the same time child rape and other evils…including natural disasters…are non existent.

Any discussion at this point I’m guessing would follow these same themes.

I’m not sure that it is worth the time to continue on beating the same drum.

Most folks here know my positions so I don’t know that it’s necessary to lay them out or repeat them.

So it comes down to different world views as to who and what God is or isn’t. And that discussion can be had till the cows come home. And has been for ages of time.

The message of the restoration is clear. It is available for all who have eyes to see and ears to hear. The message of nonbelievers is also clear and it is available for all who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

We are fortunately living in a world where we have the free agency to choose whether to believe on thing or another. Do one thing or another. And allow everyone the same privilege. Even those that choose to break man’s law and/or God’s law.

But with consequences.

Personally, I would have it no other way. And I don’t think there is any other way.

I’ve spent quite a bit of time participating in this thread. I will need to curtail and slow down my activity and move onto some other things. Any comments made at this point will be made sparingly. If something is being rehashed or repackaged in order to ‘trigger’ my impulse to continue beating the same drum others are beating over and over, I will refrain. Including triggers (innuendos, etc.) that are pointed at me directly.

As they most likely will. And no, I’m not playing the ‘victim’. Sheesh.

I appreciate the views expressed and I think we are all the better for being able to understand the ‘other’ at a deeper level. I, for one, have learned much.

Best wishes.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

I would also like you to explain what “IHAQBKA” stands for.

I'm guessing that this is one of MG's moves to subtly disparage you, IHQ. Marcus, tagriffy, Res Ipsa, malkie, and others have repeatly pointed out this ongoing tendency. MG will neither ever own it, nor stop doing it. When he's called out on it, he tells you to grow a pair or says you have a victim mentality. After that, he'll often either claim that he's being canceled or that you're godlessly maligning all believers. This is all a part of his not inconsiderable charm.



edit: To be honest, it's not even the continuous, subtle derogation of others that bothers me. It's the disingenuousness of the denials.

Your post is accurate and your edit is absolutely accurate. I will say that he has evolved a slightly new variation, in that he is absolutely transparent with his projections. He has accused others many times in this thread, with deadly accuracy, of posting EXACTLY like he does.

It's so obvious and yet he insists so strenuously that he's not projecting. I sometimes wonder if this is some long term Poe's Law con. A Poe-Troll?

[Res Ipsa]

MG 20, what you wrote in your summary is not a deep understanding at all of what has been posted in this thread.

[malkie]

I would also like you to explain what “IHAQBKA” stands for.

I'm guessing that this is one of MG's moves to subtly disparage you, IHQ. Marcus, tagriffy, Res Ipsa, malkie, and others have repeatly pointed out this ongoing tendency. MG will neither ever own it, nor stop doing it. When he's called out on it, he tells you to grow a pair or says you have a victim mentality. After that, he'll often either claim that he's being canceled or that you're godlessly maligning all believers. This is all a part of his not inconsiderable charm.



edit: To be honest, it's not even the continuous, subtle derogation of others that bothers me. It's the disingenuousness of the denials.

Unless he completely fooled me at the time, the MG I met about 8 or 9 years ago was quite different from the 2.0 version.

A year or two back I pointed out to him that he seemed to be becoming like some of the people he criticised for their meanness. If I recall correctly, his reply was to the effect that "they deserve it". This, in part, is what makes me much less likely to want to respond to him.

[Rivendale]

That the church teaches the doctrine of the fall doesn’t really change anything significantly in regards to blame and responsibility in the natural world.

Simply not true. Beliefs inform actions. I know many believers who couldn't care less about climate change or any other environmental issues because Jesus will fix it all. Consider what my believing former secretary said regarding the aftermath of the Sandy Hook shooting. She really wondered what God needed with all those children but he must have had a reason. Nothing about the issue at hand. Nothing about the ramification of it in the now. Nope. Just used that indoctrinated thought stopping cliché and moved on. Stem cell research is affected. End of life rights is affected. Marriage is affected. These things don't exist in isolation and I think you know it.

Not even sure what you mean by “tortuous mazes to stifle”. Maybe you could elaborate.

Belief in supernatural claims adds extra assumptions that act as idler wheels and does no heavy lifting to explain the workings of the Universe. These idler wheels create elaborate mazes that stack assumption after assumption which adds no explanatory power.

That’s what good people everywhere attempt to do. You’re not suggesting that a religious person is unable or unwilling to “do something about it” are you?

See above.

[I Have Questions]

Hi IHAQBKA,

Please read my reply to huckleberry on the last page (64).This might help explain what has been confusing for you.

Regards,
MG

I’ve read that. It confirms that I didn’t misrepresent what you said. As others have pointed out, you didn’t make yourself clear. Now, what’s the fail-safe for a child who was abused and had their entire adult life experience ruined by someone who exercised their free agency to abuse another, given that this life experience is supposedly an essential requirement for eternal progression? Where is the victims fail-safe and how do they regain the opportunity of an earthly life’s learning experience?

I would also like you to explain what “IHAQBKA” stands for.

Still waiting…