If plates then God

[Moksha]

I could have been less harsh/abrasive than I was.

Regards,
MG

It makes me think of the Mormon missionaries on the street dilemma. People cross to the other side of the street to avoid the missionaries. Yet, the missionaries are within their rights to be standing on the street soliciting new members for their religion. Similarly, cantinas in Tiajuana post barkers at the entrance to lure in customers and argue for the existence of gold plates on the dance stage.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

I could have been less harsh/abrasive than I was.

Regards,
MG

It makes me think of the Mormon missionaries on the street dilemma. People cross to the other side of the street to avoid the missionaries. Yet, the missionaries are within their rights to be standing on the street soliciting new members for their religion. Similarly, cantinas in Tiajuana post barkers at the entrance to lure in customers and argue for the existence of gold plates on the dance stage.

Are there really “establishments” in Tijuana where you can discuss the Book of Mormon with the entertainment while they are dancing on stage?

I’m just asking for a friend.

[Moksha]

I’m just asking for a friend.

Can't say this is straight from the Tiajuana Donkey's mouth, but head to Feleena's Cantina and say the password, "Bednar".

[Marcus]

Marcus, thankyou. That certainly clarifies why people have the feelings that have been expressed about MG. It also explains why Grindael was upset.

You're welcome.

[Marcus]

This is really disturbing . I followed Grindael for years on other platforms and this really bothers me. I didn't find this sight early enough to see this back and forth. One of Grindael's last posts was "still here". Yes he is.

Yes, he is. Thank you for your post.

[Marcus]

Marcus, thankyou. That certainly clarifies why people have the feelings that have been expressed about MG. It also explains why Grindael was upset.

It takes two to tangle. My recollections are that Grindael dished out his fair share of ‘crap’.

BS. You harassed him relentlessly. For YEARS. It wasn't a two-person "tangle."

I could have done better at reigning in some of my responses. Some of the things he said and sources he referred to were slanted/biased in one direction and my responses were at times harsh and lacked tolerance.

Again, i call bs. You weren't offering opinions on concepts or ideas. You attacked him for the person he was. Blaming your actions now on his use of "sources" and his opinions is an unjustifiable excuse for your viciousness.

Here's one from years ago where you again tried to justify your bad behavior:

Apparently while I was not paying much attention to this board my name came up in this thread. Just a short comment. To protect my good name I must strongly oppose the accusations that were regurgitated against me. They were not true then and they’re not true today. Much has been made of who was the victim, and who should be respected/honored for one reason or another, and those (one being me) who didn’t deserve that same respect because we strongly disagreed with the dominant party line and made a point of saying so. Different methods and strategies were then used to defame and sling mud at those of us that were/are believers. Being called a troll, being one of many....

Mentalgymnast, you stalked and targeted grindael for years, you called him names, you disparaged repeatedly his in real life writings and presentations, including multiple announcements made here about his accomplishments. You invaded every thread he started, derailing with vicious insults and non-stop mean-spiritedness. Even after promising multiple times publicly you would no longer troll his threads, you continued to do it. Even after you were given a Jubilee and promised (again!) to stay off his threads and stop trolling him, within HOURS you started up again.

You were the exact definition of a troll who posts with the intent to disrupt. People's objections to your targeting of Grindael had absolutely NOTHING to do with objecting to your religion. Everyone who read your shameful attacks knew that. People objected to YOU. It was you and your behavior on display and it was sickening to see you continue going after him. Your behavior was inexcusable.

[MG 2.0]

Marcus, thank you for reposting this post from the days when Grindael posted here:

MG: Apparently while I was not paying much attention to this board my name came up in this thread. Just a short comment. To protect my good name I must strongly oppose the accusations that were regurgitated against me. They were not true then and they’re not true today. Much has been made of who was the victim, and who should be respected/honored for one reason or another, and those (one being me) who didn’t deserve that same respect because we strongly disagreed with the dominant party line and made a point of saying so. Different methods and strategies were then used to defame and sling mud at those of us that were/are believers. Being called a troll, being one of many....

I still stand by those words. And I also reiterate what I’ve said in this thread in regards to your expressed concerns.

Earlier you were attempting to steer the thread back on track and discuss any other ideas or input regarding the role the plates played in the restoration narrative. If you or anyone else has something to add, that may be the direction to proceed rather than letting old hurts take precedence.

As it is, and like I’ve said, I think I’ve already made the case for why the plates were integral to the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in these the latter days.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

You say you 'stand by' your words? Really? Here are your words:

...I could have done better at reigning in some of my responses. Some of the things he said and sources he referred to were slanted/biased in one direction and my responses were at times harsh and lacked tolerance...

And I stand by my words:

When grindael excitedly announced that he had been chosen to present his research at the Whitmer conference and shared with us some of his work, this was one (just one of many!) of the trolling comments that mentalgymnast posted on his announcement thread that evening:

by the way, loser, we are already well aware that you don't believe in the Divine calling of Joseph Smith...so what's your point in preaching to the choir? You already know you're gonna just get high fives. So what's your point? Much ado about nothing, isn't it?

You're a loser, grindael. Ya, I know I just called you a loser. But the shoe fits.

I stand by my words that the above is just one example of the way you harassed him, over and over and over, a systematic attack that went on for years. You were not responding to the ideas and thoughts in his research. You were trolling.

Another very significant point is that grindael, through his research and work, made his in real life information available. You, an anonymous troll, were harming him in real life with your attacks here on his character and reputation. He stated that in his good-bye post, noting that this in real life effect was one of the main reasons he was leaving. There is no excuse for how you behaved, and your 'two to tangle' excuses don't cut it, and it's not an 'old hurt.'

You did real damage to a human being.

--------------------

As it is, and like I’ve said, I think I’ve already made the case for why the plates were integral to the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in these the latter days...

What? Your testimony about 'why the plates were integral to the bringing forth...' does NOT capture the topic of this thread, and especially not the many subtopics.

The last time you tried to summarize, RI said this:

MG 20, what you wrote in your summary is not a deep understanding at all of what has been posted in this thread.

Still fits.

[MG 2.0]

You say you 'stand by' your words? Really? Here are your words:

...I could have done better at reigning in some of my responses. Some of the things he said and sources he referred to were slanted/biased in one direction and my responses were at times harsh and lacked tolerance...

And I stand by my words:

When grindael excitedly announced that he had been chosen to present his research at the Whitmer conference and shared with us some of his work, this was one (just one of many!) of the trolling comments that mentalgymnast posted on his announcement thread that evening:

I stand by my words that the above is just one example of the way you harassed him, over and over and over, a systematic attack that went on for years. You were not responding to the ideas and thoughts in his research. You were trolling.

Another very significant point is that grindael, through his research and work, made his in real life information available. You, an anonymous troll, were harming him in real life with your attacks here on his character and reputation. He stated that in his good-bye post, noting that this in real life effect was one of the main reasons he was leaving. There is no excuse for how you behaved, and your 'two to tangle' excuses don't cut it, and it's not an 'old hurt.'

You did real damage to a human being.

--------------------

As it is, and like I’ve said, I think I’ve already made the case for why the plates were integral to the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ in these the latter days...

What? Your testimony about 'why the plates were integral to the bringing forth...' does NOT capture the topic of this thread, and especially not the many subtopics.

The last time you tried to summarize, RI said this:

MG 20, what you wrote in your summary is not a deep understanding at all of what has been posted in this thread.

Still fits.

Hi Marcus, you of course are entitled to see things from your own point of view/perspective. I see it differently. In regards to the plates, same thing. I don’t fault Res Ipsa for having a different perspective or point of view than I do.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

So, mg completely blows past this. No surprise.

Another very significant point is that grindael, through his research and work, made his in real life information available. You, an anonymous troll, were harming him in real life with your attacks here on his character and reputation. He stated that in his good-bye post, noting that this in real life effect was one of the main reasons he was leaving. There is no excuse for how you behaved, and your 'two to tangle' excuses don't cut it, and it's not an 'old hurt.'

You did real damage to a human being.

And it's too late, sadly, for him to apologize to grindael here.

May our friend rest in peace.

Anyway:

Thanks for commenting on this, malkie. Though, unfortunately, I've never had the chance to meet MG, this assessment mirrors my experience with him on this board.

Seriously. His last 6 (SIX!!) in a row show the narcissism IHQ described exactly.

But, he says he's done, so we can get back to the topic. Although, he's said that at least twice before on this thread, so i'm only mildly hopeful.

In any case, i'll repost what i said about Kish's previous comments again about Smith's situation, his posts offer considerable insight into the discussion we were having, in my opinion:

I recall several discussions on our previous site about whether plates, real or fake, actually existed. I always found them fascinating, mostly because when I grew up, they absolutely integral to a Mormon youth's testimony of the 'truthfulness' of 'the Gospel,' but now, it turns out they weren't even used! What a bizarre flip!

Anyway, I always felt that grindael's various discussions on the subject lent the most credence to the idea that the 'item' always under cloth, and conveniently never quite there to see with actual eyes, was sand, or at best, a brick or an odd piece of house décor.

In looking for grindael's post about sand(!), I found this excellent discussion by Kishkumen of the place the story of the plates has in our history, which I hope he doesn't mind if I re-post. It's too good to lose to the vagaries of internet forum upkeep:

Mormonism is a very Western belief system. Indeed, every aspect of it you examine is easily interpreted as a manifestation of one or many currents of Western culture and history. It combines them in a unique way, but to say that Mormonism is simply phony is to ignore all of the ways it expresses those larger and older currents. Let's take, for example, the gold plates. Here is the single most obvious lie Joseph Smith ever told. It is also one of the most damning. Nothing about it is credible.

But the story of the discovery of the gold plates is rooted in narratives that go back to very ancient history indeed. This is what I was getting at in my last Sunstone talk that Taves neither liked nor, frankly, understood very well, as she pushed her own agenda about what "Religious Studies" is. Taves preferred to understand the gold plates through the lens of the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation, when Joseph would have been much more familiar with folk magic and Freemasonry than Catholicism. She might still land on Catholicism if she were to understand Freemasonry and magic better, but that is a topic for another day.

So, yes, the gold plates were made up. But they were tailor made for a culture of sacred and magical books that was not only informed by the Bible (and this is the dominant influence, to be sure), but also by the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, Letters from Heaven, the gold plate of Enoch, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, and the Books of Numa. Folk and esoteric religion was already open to the kind of claim Joseph was making, even if it did not actually happen in the way he said it did. For centuries people have been writing sacred or magical texts, putting the name of a famous person on them, and sending them out into the world to become someone else's scripture.

Is the Book of Mormon to be specially rejected while the fabrications and the forgeries of the Bible, circulated under names such as Daniel and Paul, are fine? Are scriptures to be rejected as important expressions of our history and culture because they were written by unknown priests, forgers, and men such as Joseph Smith? Do beliefs become bereft of value when their origins are as dubiously accurate as their contents are unhistorical?

[posted 12/2018]
Inserted from <http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... l&start=21>

and

...It seems to me that you are forgetting that he was an established trickster who was engaging in treasure-digging schemes. His skills and his subject matter come directly from that milieu. The Book of Mormon starts off as a treasure that he and other treasure seers were looking for. The translation springs out of that, and it cannot be divorced from it. He had first to convince others that he recovered the plates. Then he eventually commits to translating them himself. Knowing that this all originated in a ruse, we should instead think it would have been strange for him to do other than he did.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1223977