If plates then God

[Marcus]

Back to the thread:

Another very significant point is that grindael, through his research and work, made his in real life information available. You, an anonymous troll, were harming him in real life with your attacks here on his character and reputation. He stated that in his good-bye post, noting that this in real life effect was one of the main reasons he was leaving. There is no excuse for how you behaved, and your 'two to tangle' excuses don't cut it, and it's not an 'old hurt.'

You did real damage to a human being.

And it's too late, sadly, for him to apologize to grindael here.

May our friend rest in peace.

Anyway:

[Mental] says he's done, so we can get back to the topic. Although, he's said that at least twice before on this thread, so i'm only mildly hopeful.

In any case, i'll repost what i said about Kish's previous comments again about Smith's situation, his posts offer considerable insight into the discussion we were having, in my opinion:

I recall several discussions on our previous site about whether plates, real or fake, actually existed. I always found them fascinating, mostly because when I grew up, they absolutely integral to a Mormon youth's testimony of the 'truthfulness' of 'the Gospel,' but now, it turns out they weren't even used! What a bizarre flip!

Anyway, I always felt that grindael's various discussions on the subject lent the most credence to the idea that the 'item' always under cloth, and conveniently never quite there to see with actual eyes, was sand, or at best, a brick or an odd piece of house décor.

In looking for grindael's post about sand(!), I found this excellent discussion by Kishkumen of the place the story of the plates has in our history, which I hope he doesn't mind if I re-post. It's too good to lose to the vagaries of internet forum upkeep:

Mormonism is a very Western belief system. Indeed, every aspect of it you examine is easily interpreted as a manifestation of one or many currents of Western culture and history. It combines them in a unique way, but to say that Mormonism is simply phony is to ignore all of the ways it expresses those larger and older currents. Let's take, for example, the gold plates. Here is the single most obvious lie Joseph Smith ever told. It is also one of the most damning. Nothing about it is credible.

But the story of the discovery of the gold plates is rooted in narratives that go back to very ancient history indeed. This is what I was getting at in my last Sunstone talk that Taves neither liked nor, frankly, understood very well, as she pushed her own agenda about what "Religious Studies" is. Taves preferred to understand the gold plates through the lens of the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation, when Joseph would have been much more familiar with folk magic and Freemasonry than Catholicism. She might still land on Catholicism if she were to understand Freemasonry and magic better, but that is a topic for another day.

So, yes, the gold plates were made up. But they were tailor made for a culture of sacred and magical books that was not only informed by the Bible (and this is the dominant influence, to be sure), but also by the Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, Letters from Heaven, the gold plate of Enoch, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, and the Books of Numa. Folk and esoteric religion was already open to the kind of claim Joseph was making, even if it did not actually happen in the way he said it did. For centuries people have been writing sacred or magical texts, putting the name of a famous person on them, and sending them out into the world to become someone else's scripture.

Is the Book of Mormon to be specially rejected while the fabrications and the forgeries of the Bible, circulated under names such as Daniel and Paul, are fine? Are scriptures to be rejected as important expressions of our history and culture because they were written by unknown priests, forgers, and men such as Joseph Smith? Do beliefs become bereft of value when their origins are as dubiously accurate as their contents are unhistorical?

[posted 12/2018]
Inserted from <http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... l&start=21>

and

...It seems to me that you are forgetting that he was an established trickster who was engaging in treasure-digging schemes. His skills and his subject matter come directly from that milieu. The Book of Mormon starts off as a treasure that he and other treasure seers were looking for. The translation springs out of that, and it cannot be divorced from it. He had first to convince others that he recovered the plates. Then he eventually commits to translating them himself. Knowing that this all originated in a ruse, we should instead think it would have been strange for him to do other than he did.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1223977

[Res Ipsa]

Marcus, please link to what you are describing as Grindael's "final letter."

Ok, i'll see if i can find it, searching is very hit or miss on the board now. Why do you ask?

Because our recollections differ significantly, and I don't want to trust my memory when the evidence should exist (although may be difficult to find).

[Marcus]

Ok, i'll see if i can find it, searching is very hit or miss on the board now. Why do you ask?

Because our recollections differ significantly, and I don't want to trust my memory when the evidence should exist (although may be difficult to find).

they do? Well, my memory is pretty solid on what I mentioned from it, so if you need to confirm something I'm sure you can find it as easily as I can.

[Res Ipsa]

Because our recollections differ significantly, and I don't want to trust my memory when the evidence should exist (although may be difficult to find).

they do? Well, my memory is pretty solid on what I mentioned from it, so if you need to confirm something I'm sure you can find it as easily as I can.

Yes, they do. I don't know what you're referring to as a "final letter" from Grindael; that's why I asked.

[Marcus]

they do? Well, my memory is pretty solid on what I mentioned from it, so if you need to confirm something I'm sure you can find it as easily as I can.

Yes, they do. I don't know what you're referring to as a "final letter" from Grindael; that's why I asked.

He made a large final post explaining why he was leaving. He posted it shortly after mentalgymnast called him a "loser' in a thread where he announced being chosen as a speaker at the whitmer historical society (?) event, as well as announcing the publication of his paper in their journal.

He noted that, due to being open about his research, blog, papers, etc. his in real life information was openly available, and the crap mentalgymnast harrassed him with was not only overwhelming when he posted here but was also leaking into his in real life. He was concerned about his reputation online as he pursued his historical research, and he was worried that mentalgymnast's negative comments were leaking over and affecting his in real life reputation.

I'll look for my old stuff, but given that you have questioned me several times over the years about this topic of mg trolling grindael (in which i have EVERY TIME backed up my comments), I'm sure you must have some records as well.

Alternatively, i could find for you the post where you said:
"Note to self: never go up against Lemmie when it comes to remembering [and documenting!] what has been posted in this forum."

[MG 2.0]

[He was concerned about his reputation online as he pursued his historical research, and he was worried that mentalgymnast's negative comments were leaking over and affecting his in real life reputation.

That’s interesting. That’s a different twist on what I’ve heard all along. It seems as though he would really have nothing to worry about from me.

After all, he was the expert. I sure never claimed to be. I don’t have any idea why he would be concerned with anything I had to say interfering with his expertise and knowledge.

That’s kind of weird in a way. But interesting nonetheless.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

[He was concerned about his reputation online as he pursued his historical research, and he was worried that mentalgymnast's negative comments were leaking over and affecting his in real life reputation.

That’s interesting. That’s a different twist on what I’ve heard all along. It seems as though he would really have nothing to worry about from me.

After all, he was the expert. I sure never claimed to be. I don’t have any idea why he would be concerned with anything I had to say interfering with his expertise and knowledge.

That’s kind of weird in a way. But interesting nonetheless.

Regards,
MG

An example of mentalgymnast's trolling of grindael:

When grindael excitedly announced that he had been chosen to present his research at the Whitmer conference and shared with us some of his work, this was one (just one of many!) of the trolling comments that mentalgymnast posted on his announcement thread that evening:

by the way, loser, we are already well aware that you don't believe in the Divine calling of Joseph Smith...so what's your point in preaching to the choir? You already know you're gonna just get high fives. So what's your point? Much ado about nothing, isn't it?

You're a loser, grindael. Ya, I know I just called you a loser. But the shoe fits.

[Res Ipsa]

Yes, they do. I don't know what you're referring to as a "final letter" from Grindael; that's why I asked.

He made a large final post explaining why he was leaving. He posted it shortly after mentalgymnast called him a "loser' in a thread where he announced being chosen as a speaker at the whitmer historical society (?) event, as well as announcing the publication of his paper in their journal.

He noted that, due to being open about his research, blog, papers, etc. his in real life information was openly available, and the crap mentalgymnast harrassed him with was not only overwhelming when he posted here but was also leaking into his in real life. He was concerned about his reputation online as he pursued his historical research, and he was worried that mentalgymnast's negative comments were leaking over and affecting his in real life reputation.

I'll look for my old stuff, but given that you have questioned me several times over the years about this topic of mg trolling grindael (in which i have EVERY TIME backed up my comments), I'm sure you must have some records as well.

Alternatively, i could find for you the post where you said:
"Note to self: never go up against Lemmie when it comes to remembering [and documenting!] what has been posted in this forum."

Ok, now I know the thread you're talking about. I'll just keep working my way back until I hit it.

My recollection is this: MG did troll Grindael. That trolling was the thing that set in motion me becoming a mod for the first time.

My recollection is that MG got under Grindael's skin in that thread and Grindael (justifiably, in my opinion) went off on him. He was working hard on some in real life projects and expressed frustration about spending time here, only to get the crap trolled out of him by MG. I don't recall him ever expressing the belief that MG (an anonymous nobody) was damaging or could even damage his reputation. Grindael was, in my recollection, very confident in and proud of the reputation he had built. Seeing MG as any kind of threat (as opposed to an annoyance) is so counter to who he was that I would really be surprised to see him describe MG as a threat of any kind.

My recollection is that he did take either a break or a period of reduced posting after that encounter, but he had previously warned that he might be scarce because he wanted to concentrate on his RL projects. My recollection is also that, at some point, he said that MG hadn't chased him away from the board.

After the break (or whatever), he returned to the board. MG tried the same tactics on him, and he went right at MG and repeatedly slapped him into next week. He called him "mental" (and not in a nice sense). He called him "weasel" until MG ran to Shades to get him to stop. In the last interaction between the two that I can remember, he kicked MG into next month.

Trump wishes he was half the counter-puncher that Grindael was.

That's my recollection: after what you are recalling as a farewell letter, Grindael posted hundreds more times here and dished out to MG everything MG threw at him, and then some.

I have tons of respect for Johnny. He'd forgotten more about LDS history than I've ever known. He had an amazing mind for mastering and assembling details scattered throughout records and putting them together in a compelling narrative. Memory is fallible, and I have to sort through lots of posts (did I mention he was a prolific writer?) and am fairly confident I'm remembering some pieces wrong. But I think it does Johnny a great disservice to portray him as a poor victim of MG.

I think Khan's quotation of Moby Dick gives a better sense of his interactions here with MG:

“…To the last, I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart, I stab at thee; for hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”

Although I would replace with "hate" with "contempt."

[Res Ipsa]

Okay, I searched Grindael's posts by author and have reached the post that I recalled as Johnny saying that he hadn't been chased off the board by MG.

I stopped by here out today out of concern for people leaving. I don't want anyone to leave over me or my situation with that other poster. That being said, I am making this comment specifically to say that LEMMIE is RIGHT. I did report about him a long time ago. I also reported MYSELF to Shades and said I had a problem keeping the rules in relation to him trolling my threads. This has been an ongoing problem that Shades has been aware of, but I stupidly didn't rely on him to sort it out, I relished doing it myself and it was WRONG. PART of the reason I am taking a break is my ongoing problems with him, but that is not the whole reason. The last spat just made up my mind that it would be good for me to take a break.

I greatly appreciate everyone who has made such nice comments about me. I will try to post more on my blog as I have time. I have some real issues and I feel pressed for time. I have a long paper to submit and a book also. And my health is not good. I don't want to create any drama, its an ongoing problem I've had for years, just getting worse.

I think it is unfair to that other poster to keep making threads about him. Let it be and let Shades handle it. Jersey has the right idea. As I was reading through some of these recent threads I see two or three things this poster has written about the Book of Abraham and other subjects that I would love to comment on, but I think it would be better if I did not.

There are some beautiful people here. Make this place better. You can. You will. And I'll probably be back in the future. Just got to sort out some crap.

my best to all,

johnny

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=147626&p=2593089#p2593089

This was posted in November 2017, a couple of months before I became a moderator the first time around. I believe the "last spat" Johnny is referring to involves what you are referring to as a farewell letter. Johnny says it was a long time ago. My recollection is more like a few months before. I'll keep plugging back before I post some references to Johnny's interaction with MG.

In October 2017, Johnny posted:

I didn't know where to post this, I hope that it is the right place, and I do so here because I don't want any threads started like "Where is grindael"? I am taking a break and I don't know if I'll be back. I don't want any drama, so that's all. Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in my research and for your valuable insights that have helped me along the way.

viewtopic.php?p=2587056#p2587056

This thread started by Johnny gives some additional information about the threads he posted about reporting.viewtopic.php?f=5&t=147404

This thread started by Johnny lays out in spades his view of MG
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=147381

This is a split from the thread where, I think, the big blow up occurred: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=147397 and this is the substantive thread Johnny started on the topic of inconsistencies he found in the Smith family's stories after reading Rough Stone Rolling. Note that Johnny's short post saying that he's going and may not be coming back was made in this thread. (followed by a post from me that mentions that I just got back from a break). viewtopic.php?f=4&t=147363

So, my recollection of a big blowup being over a thread about Johnny winning an award was off. I do remember the thread, and I remember that MG trolled him in personal way that was waayyyyy out of line. Marcus, is that where the quote from MG you posted is from. But, apparently, the blow up that precipitated Johnny taking a board bread was in the "inconsistencies" thread.

Back to the hunt for the thread both Marcus and I recall.

This is the post I said I recalled in which Johnny said he might not be around much because he had lots of in real life stuff he needed to do.

Just informing everyone that I've put this off in lieu of finishing my book, "Spiritual Wives: The Beginnings of Mormon Polygamy", which I'm hoping to have finished by years end. The book will be divided into two parts, "Before Nauvoo" and "The City of Joseph" and will chronicle the development of Joseph's teachings on the "sealing power" and his Spiritual Wifeism. The story will be told chronologically, so it will be easy to follow and understand.

I will also have my paper finished on Emma Smith & The 1869 Utah Affidavits and submitted by years end.

So with that, I'll be busy writing and so you may not hear from me for a while. I do enjoy sharing things here though and so when I can, I'll post things and probably still comment on other subjects when I take a break from writing.

I sincerely appreciate all the interest in my research and hope I can deliver a great book on this subject for any interested.

Thanks,

Johnny

viewtopic.php?p=2585350#p2585350

Note: Other than the November post I started with, all of this stuff is happening in October. I haven't tried to arrange the individual posts by date.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I remember that ‘last letter’ to the board. It was heartbreaking. MG enjoyed hurting Grindael.

-Doc