Israel

[ajax18]

Also, Egypt warned Israel three days in advance that an attack was imminent.

Egypt also isn't willing to take any Palestinian refugees. We assume in the West that everyone thinks the same. It turns out that Hamas's priorities are different. That's why they repurposed the donated water pipes to turn them into rocket launchers. You think because you care about your people that Hamas cares about its people. They'd rather their own people go without clean water if it means they might be able to kill a few more Jews.

[Res Ipsa]

Also, Egypt warned Israel three days in advance that an attack was imminent.

Egypt also isn't willing to take any Palestinian refugees. We assume in the West that everyone thinks the same. It turns out that Hamas's priorities are different. That's why they repurposed the donated water pipes to turn them into rocket launchers. You think because you care about your people that Hamas cares about its people. They'd rather their own people go without clean water if it means they might be able to kill a few more Jews.

The problem is that you don't think. It is absolutely true that Hamas repurposes water pipes to make into rockets. What's false is the "donated pipes" claim. The pipes being repurposed were old pipes from abandoned Israeli settlements:

While still having to rely on smuggling parts and raw materials, Hamas leaders say the group has engineered creative workarounds to overcome tighter border controls and surveillance.

A 50-minute documentary broadcast by the Qatari-owned television channel Al Jazeera in September showed rare scenes of Hamas militants recovering dozens of Israeli missiles that had not detonated in previous strikes on Gaza.

They brought the remnants into what looked like a hidden manufacturing facility, carefully extracted the explosives packed inside and recycled some of the parts. The same documentary also showed militants digging up old water pipes from where Israeli settlements used to sit and repurposing the empty cylinders in the production of new rockets.

Referring to the repurposed plumbing pipes, while speaking in another gathering in 2019, Mr. Sinwar said, “There is enough there to manufacture rockets for the coming 10 years.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/13/worl ... srael.html

Right wingers used that video to push the narrative that Hamas was digging up pipes being used to supply water to Gaza. Just like you did.

[Gunnar]

Also, Egypt warned Israel three days in advance that an attack was imminent.

Egypt also isn't willing to take any Palestinian refugees. We assume in the West that everyone thinks the same. It turns out that Hamas's priorities are different. That's why they repurposed the donated water pipes to turn them into rocket launchers. You think because you care about your people that Hamas cares about its people. They'd rather their own people go without clean water if it means they might be able to kill a few more Jews.

RI's response to this post of yours is exactly right, but I'm sure that neither he nor anyone else on this forum would disagree with you that Hamas is a fanatical, evil organization that does more harm than good, even to the Palestinians for whom they claim to be advocates. As Vēritās said, even the vast majority of Palestinians strongly disapprove of what they have done. They have only made things even worse for both Jews and Palestinians alike! Palestinians, in general, deserve a lot more compassion and sympathy than you are apparently willing to grant them.

IMHO, These attacks are not intended only to hurt Jews directly, but to escalate the vicious, positive feedback loop of mutual hatred, vengeance and retaliation of Jews and Palestinians for each other in order to get Palestinians to look only to Hamas for relief from their miseries, instead of getting Jews and Palestinians to work together to solve their mutual concerns and problems.

[Gadianton]

even to the Palestinians for whom they claim to be advocates

They certainly aren't advocates, they stand in relation to Palestinians as Trump stands in relation to white nationalists.

But-- what are the sentiments of the Palestinians? I don't claim to have a good answer. But, one thing that has stuck in my mind is an early report of an Israeli girl, mid-20s, who was kidnapped, beaten, stripped, killed(?), and then driven around the streets of Palestine in the back of a truck to a cheering crowd taking pics and possibly getting a few blows in themselves. I haven't seen the video and I don't know where to get that stuff.

However, the bulk of the claim is a stripped girl is paraded around the streets of Palestine. And this is long before any counterstrike. It's highly unlikely that they'd be showing off their trophy to a booing crowd that vehemently disapproved.

That being said, for ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The children of Afghanistan who survived the war on terror became the backbone of 9/11. It's an Ajaxian fantasy that you'll kill everyone, leaving nobody with a vendetta.

Setting aside morality, my biggest concern for Israel and the free world in general is their use of resources. Why waste your ammo? Push them back to give space to work, but I'd be more interested in finding leads into that tunnel system. If you destroy buildings everywhere then the tunnels will be too unstable to explore. I'd want to map them out to understand how the enemy works, and then fill them in. If war closes in from all sides, the tunnel system will remain an unknown, and it will slowly be rebuilt. That's just one example. An advanced economy like Israel would be better off using a scalpel rather than Putin-like city leveling.

[Res Ipsa]

The Council on Foreign Relations has some pretty good explained articles. Here is the one on Hamas: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas

There’s some interesting aspects to the war that were new to me. First, much of the leadership isn’t located in Gaza. Or the West Bank. Or the Middle East. So how is the IDF going to wipe them out?

Second, Hamas is much more popular than Fatah — even in the West Bank. No idea how the Hamas attack may have affected that.

Third, more Palestinians support a two state solution than a one state solution, which makes Abbas’ demand for a one state solution in his recent speech to the UN kind of baffling.

Fourth, Palestinians view the physical and political separation of Gaza from the West Bank as a high priority problem.

Last, most Palestinians believe that the nation of Israel will not survive through 2048 (Its centenary).

There doesn’t seem to be a consensus on how that last bit will happen.

I was trying to remember whether any terrorist group embedded in a civilian population had ever been destroyed through military action. I couldn’t think of any. But another CFR article said the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka were eliminated that way. With lots of civilian casualties.

Not many rays of hope.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So how is the IDF going to wipe them out?

Well. Mossad aside, Israel has a robust relationship with their gollums, the US and Great Britain, so we’ll probably help them hunt Hamas’ leadership tree down. They also have units within units that fall under their Aman and Shin Bet, uh, directorates. Personally, I think they’re going to cash in a lot of their chips on this one. They’ll keep the western media on lock down, they’ll get western political cooperation, and they’ll kill a lot of Arabs. A lot. Their politicians are already dehumanizing the ‘Gazans’ by calling them “filthy human animals” and the such. This has the potential to escalate very quickly once the Arab World decides to take action against the West for helping Israel kill Palestinians and others. Scary stuff.

Well played, Putin. Still ain’t gonna save your ass for what’s coming, but well played for sure.

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

So how is the IDF going to wipe them out?

Well. Mossad aside, Israel has a robust relationship with their gollums, the US and Great Britain, so we’ll probably help them hunt Hamas’ leadership tree down. They also have units within units that fall under their Aman and Shin Bet, uh, directorates. Personally, I think they’re going to cash in a lot of their chips on this one. They’ll keep the western media on lock down, they’ll get western political cooperation, and they’ll kill a lot of Arabs. A lot. Their politicians are already dehumanizing the ‘Gazans’ by calling them “filthy human animals” and the such. This has the potential to escalate very quickly once the Arab World decides to take action against the West for helping Israel kill Palestinians and others. Scary stuff.

Well played, Putin. Still ain’t gonna save your ass for what’s coming, but well played for sure.

- Doc

Scary stuff indeed.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well. Mossad aside, Israel has a robust relationship with their gollums, the US and Great Britain, so we’ll probably help them hunt Hamas’ leadership tree down. They also have units within units that fall under their Aman and Shin Bet, uh, directorates. Personally, I think they’re going to cash in a lot of their chips on this one. They’ll keep the western media on lock down, they’ll get western political cooperation, and they’ll kill a lot of Arabs. A lot. Their politicians are already dehumanizing the ‘Gazans’ by calling them “filthy human animals” and the such. This has the potential to escalate very quickly once the Arab World decides to take action against the West for helping Israel kill Palestinians and others. Scary stuff.

Well played, Putin. Still ain’t gonna save your ass for what’s coming, but well played for sure.

- Doc

Scary stuff indeed.

Yeeeah. I do remember when Fatah was ousted from power crap was going to go sideways. We (or rather JSOC) stood up a permanent presence in Tel Aviv around that time, I think, anticipating a need for Israel’s GSRU to get dialed into our intel community. They’re really good - probably peer or near-peer to our Delta, ST6, or Ground Branch.

So. To the point. When you’re throwing billions at near-peer capabilities to Delta Force or the SAS, you’re definitely planning to use it. I think what we’re seeing was inevitable, and I think Israel’s been champing at the bit to take out decades of frustration on Hamas and the like (don’t be surprised if this spills over to all sorts of places fast].

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

(don’t be surprised if this spills over to all sorts of places fast].

- Doc

Here?

[Res Ipsa]

Scary stuff indeed.

Yeeeah. I do remember when Fatah was ousted from power crap was going to go sideways. We (or rather JSOC) stood up a permanent presence in Tel Aviv around that time, I think, anticipating a need for Israel’s GSRU to get dialed into our intel community. They’re really good - probably peer or near-peer to our Delta, ST6, or Ground Branch.

So. To the point. When you’re throwing billions at near-peer capabilities to Delta Force or the SAS, you’re definitely planning to use it. I think what we’re seeing was inevitable, and I think Israel’s been champing at the bit to take out decades of frustration on Hamas and the like (don’t be surprised if this spills over to all sorts of places fast].

- Doc

Thanks. You’ve had a window into a world I’ve never seen. I’ve got more anxiety over this than I ever expected. I think it’s that moving fast part. I can imagine hundreds of ways this whole thing could spin out of control simply because somebody gets and acts on a bright idea without thinking it through. How would Qatar or Turkey react to an assassination by a foreign government inside their borders? I haven’t the faintest idea.

I guess it comes down to “what happens, happens.” I’m just along for the ride.