Israel

[Res Ipsa]

If one wants to understand the formation of Israel, there is a huge amount of context that one ignores at one's peril. The world was in a period of transition, and there were a number of forces at work that help explain the events that led to the formation of Israel.

1. The major powers had just begin a transition away from the ideas of colonialism and empire and toward the ideas of decolonization and self-determination through geographically smaller nation-states. The middle east had been controlled by sprawling empires throughout much of its history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... iddle_East The Ottoman Empire had controlled the area for 600 years. There was no template for creating nation-states in what was then called the Levant and Trans-Jordan.

2. The Major Powers were transitioning away from resolving disputes through war and toward resolution of disputes by an international organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations.

3. Creating smaller nation-states created borders that impacted migration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _migration

4. The long history of anti-semitism and it's effect on Jews was amplified in Russia, which inherited the world's largest population of Jews after the partition of Poland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism Persecution of Russian Jews had already triggered the migration of Jews to the Middle East while it was still a part of the Ottoman Empire. https://www.cjpme.org/fs_181

5. European Jews, partly in reaction to anti-semitism, organized a political movement -- Zionism, whose goal was formation of a Jewish nation in the historic Kingdom of Israel.

6. The Ottoman Empire joined WWI on the side of the central powers.

7. Britain and France, who took on the Ottomans, weren't confident they could win without help. They made promises to Arab groups in the region to induce them to rebel against the Ottomans. They made promises to leaders of the Zionist movement to induce Russian Jews to support Russia in the war. (The Russian Revolution made that moot).

8. "The Jewish Question" had been a matter of public debate in Europe since 1750. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question

To claim these complex forces and events can be reduced to "Duh. It's religion!!" Is not only ridiculous, it serves to fuel the ongoing conflict between Israel and its neighbors. Solving "the Jewish problem" posed by European Jews by giving them a homeland that was in a place other than Europe, was propelled by alignment of religious ideology and anti-semitism. Once the world witnessed the the holocaust, the horrific consequences of not creating a nation-state where Jews could protect themselves was made graphically clear.

The Balfour Declaration listed two conflicting goals: creating a Jewish Nation within the area of its mandate, but not at the expense of the rights of Palestinians. As the migration of Jews to the area took place, the British imposed immigration limits and incarnated thousands of "illegal immigrants." It restricted the ability of Jews to purchase real estate in much of the area.

After being unable to establish any state in Palestine, and after the League of Nations was unable to do so, Great Britain simply ended the mandate. Israel declared itself an independent nation. It's neighbors attacked, with Isreal winning the war, followed by ethnic cleansing by the forced removal of Palestinians from their homes.

There is no question that leaders of the Zionist movement used their religious ideology to persuade Jews to migrate to the middle east and to persuade nations that it was in their own interest to create a Jewish nation there. But it's also true that anti-semitism was a pretty powerful force everywhere, including in the United States. So, it's not like there was some groundswell movement to be nice to Jews and give them a present. Especially given the fact that anti-semitism had been promoted by Christians for centuries.

In creating nation states after WWI, France and Britain made some serious mistakes that still persist today. The absence of a Kurdistan springs to mind. And how to manage two groups who claimed absolute rights to the same parcel of land was never thought through thoroughly. Having two populations that are hostile toward each other with the various borders proposed during the mandate was a recipe for disaster.

But none of that can be undone. And one can search forever through an unbelievably complicated history and find blame wherever one wants. But spending time arguing about blame won't move anyone an inch closer to a solution. And oversimplified, emotion-driven rhetoric only moves us farther from a solution. In fact, so far, it's gotten the U.S. one six year old stabbed to death and his mother critically wounded. And, unless we all ratchet down the emotional rhetoric, more U.S, citizens will be killed and injured -- not by Hamas or Israelis, but by American citizens.

[Vēritās]

If one wants to understand the formation of Israel, there is a huge amount of context that one ignores at one's peril. The world was in a period of transition, and there were a number of forces at work that help explain the events that led to the formation of Israel.

Cool story bro but you're not telling me anything I don't already know. No one here has denied the existence of anti-Semitism during the early 20th century and nothing here negates the religious premise I mentioned. Jews owning the land because God gave it to them is what started this. Whenever anything is explained by "That's how God wants it" then it becomes so much easier to excuse heinous actions and that is obvious by the way "Christian" America has turned a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Israel since it became a state. Hell, you can google Evangelical pastors even to this day talking about how it is our Christian duty to protect Israel and God's chosen people. .

To claim these complex forces and events can be reduced to "Duh. It's religion!!"

Sure it can. The Muslim doctrine that Jews are to be subjugated as inferiors and the Jewish belief that they are God's chosen people occupying land that was divinely bestowed to them. Both sides firmly believe they are on the side of God which is why they have no problems murdering each other. If God sanctions it, then why not?

All the other stuff in your post is just talking about the necessary mechanisms of politics that were used as a means to that religious end. It doesn't disprove anything I said.

Is not only ridiculous, it serves to fuel the ongoing conflict between Israel and its neighbors.

By acknowledging the religious element and basis for this conflict, this in and of itself is "fueling conflict"? Trying to make sense of this...

If you think your fellow theists are inclined to stab a 6 year old boy because some agnostic guy on the internet offended them by pointing out some hard truths about the problems with religion in general, then you're pretty much making my point for me. Maybe I just have more faith in humankind than you do but I think it is absurd to suggest anything I've said on this thread is somehow inciting people to commit murder.

And one can search forever through an unbelievably complicated history and find blame wherever one wants. But spending time arguing about blame won't move anyone an inch closer to a solution.

Oh? You think the solution for the world's longest ongoing conflict is going to be discovered on an obscure Mormon message board? I think you give this board too much credit.

In fact, so far, it's gotten the U.S. one six year old stabbed to death and his mother critically wounded. And, unless we all ratchet down the emotional rhetoric, more U.S, citizens will be killed and injured -- not by Hamas or Israelis, but by American citizens.

But only by religious Americans. Only religion can make a person believe he will be rewarded for murdering children. Muslims do it, Jews do it, and millions of American Christians are sitting at home waiting for Sean Hannity, Ben Shapiro and Mark Levin to explain to them why slaughtering a million children is acceptable because God's chosen people have a right to defend themselves. And whatever the explanation, they will buy into it. Because religion makes that easy.

[Vēritās]

I prefer online documentaries with narration by Arab and Jewish historians.

Israel - Story of a contested country | my wife Documentary

[huckelberry]

But then the Jewish people came up with the idea that God gave them the land because they were living there and under attack from powerful empires threatening them. (Egypt Assyria Babylon and allies) Fundamentally a defensive idea formed some 700 to 500 BC.

You realize that the people living in Israel were not to any large degree invaders but the people who had been living there for a long long time. (per archeology not the book of Joshua)

[Chap]

If one wants to understand the formation of Israel, there is a huge amount of context that one ignores at one's peril. The world was in a period of transition, and there were a number of forces at work that help explain the events that led to the formation of Israel.

1. The major powers had just begin a transition away from the ideas of colonialism and empire and toward the ideas of decolonization and self-determination through geographically smaller nation-states. The middle east had been controlled by sprawling empires throughout much of its history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... iddle_East The Ottoman Empire had controlled the area for 600 years. There was no template for creating nation-states in what was then called the Levant and Trans-Jordan.

2. The Major Powers were transitioning away from resolving disputes through war and toward resolution of disputes by an international organization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations.

3. Creating smaller nation-states created borders that impacted migration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _migration

4. The long history of anti-semitism and it's effect on Jews was amplified in Russia, which inherited the world's largest population of Jews after the partition of Poland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism Persecution of Russian Jews had already triggered the migration of Jews to the Middle East while it was still a part of the Ottoman Empire. https://www.cjpme.org/fs_181

5. European Jews, partly in reaction to anti-semitism, organized a political movement -- Zionism, whose goal was formation of a Jewish nation in the historic Kingdom of Israel.

6. The Ottoman Empire joined WWI on the side of the central powers.

7. Britain and France, who took on the Ottomans, weren't confident they could win without help. They made promises to Arab groups in the region to induce them to rebel against the Ottomans. They made promises to leaders of the Zionist movement to induce Russian Jews to support Russia in the war. (The Russian Revolution made that moot).

8. "The Jewish Question" had been a matter of public debate in Europe since 1750. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question

To claim these complex forces and events can be reduced to "Duh. It's religion!!" Is not only ridiculous, it serves to fuel the ongoing conflict between Israel and its neighbors.

Thanks. It was never as simple as "someone stole Palestine and gave it to the Jews because of religion".

[Vēritās]

Going to the moon was never as simple as hopping in a rocket. But hopping in a rocket is what they did.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

But then the Jewish people came up with the idea that God gave them the land because they were living there and under attack from powerful empires threatening them. (Egypt Assyria Babylon and allies) Fundamentally a defensive idea formed some 700 to 500 BC.

You realize that the people living in Israel were not to any large degree invaders but the people who had been living there for a long long time. (per archeology not the book of Joshua)

Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from old timey Canaanites, who mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamians, and Anatolians back in the day. I don't think cultural and religious differences really settle the matter of who 'owns' the land, since they both seem to be indigenous, more or less, to the area.

The only, and I mean only thing driving this crap show, is religion, and in a distant second place is access to resources.

- Doc

[Vēritās]

The only, and I mean only thing driving this crap show, is religion, and in a distant second place is access to resources.

- Doc

And access to resources isn't entirely unrelated to religion either. America is a Christian nation, we're constantly reminded. This was even more true when Israel became a state 75 years ago. Jesus was a Jew. Jews might be a little misguided about who the messiah is, but they're still God's chosen people. Muslims on the other hand .... pffft. Do we really need to list the instances where US officials have called them animals? Nah, you get the point.

Just look at the double standard already being applied with respect to the way the US recently condemned unequivocally, the bombing of civilians and the cutting off of electricity and water in Ukraine. Calling it "barbaric" when Putin does it, but when Israel does it a year later, well, good luck trying to get a similar description from US officials.

Israel became a nuclear power within twenty years of its existence thanks to us. Go ahead and explain to me why that was allowed to happen. It has received billions from us every year. That's billions with a B, for a country with fewer than 10 million citizens. We've given them over $317 billion since their inception.

Why do you think that is?

[Res Ipsa]

The only, and I mean only thing driving this crap show, is religion, and in a distant second place is access to resources.

- Doc

Israel became a nuclear power within twenty years of its existence thanks to us. Go ahead and explain to me why that was allowed to happen.

Not thanks to us. In spite of us. You can find the history in Wikipedia for God's sake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_w ... and_Israel

[Morley]

There’s another piece to this.

On a trip to the Near East in 2012, I drove from Amman to Wadi Rum in Jordan. It was surprising how many old Crusader castles are along that route. We, in the West, tend to forget what sore spot the history of the Crusades is to everyone in that part of the world. Israeli occupation is often seen as a reinstatement of that chunk of imperialism, one in which European Jews, with Western ties, technology, and customs are acting as a proxy for American and European colonialism—a kind of reinstatement of the Crusades, where the West seeks to subjugate and displace Islamic peoples and culture.